何兆武 — 無論什麼工作，你一定要有興趣才好

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何兆武

著名歷史學家、翻譯家，1921年生於北京，1939年至1946年就讀於西南聯大，曾長期任職於中科院歷史研究所。1986年後任清華大學思想文化研究所、清華大學人文學院歷史系教授，長期從事史學理論、中西文化交流及西方現代思想史研究。

He Zhaowu, renowned historian and translator, was born in the year of 1921 in Beijing. He attended the National Southwest Associated University (NSAU) from 1939 to 1946, and worked at the Institute of Historical Research of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences for a long time. In 1986, he became a professor at the Institute of Humanities and the Department of History in School of Humanities at Tsinghua University, where he would continue for a long period the study in historical theories, cultural exchanges between Chinese and western cultures, and the contemporary western intellectual history.

2016年12月22日，何兆武先生在家中接受了中國網記者的專訪。談起舊時往事，95歲高齡的何老難得提起了聊天的興緻。

On December 22, 2016, Mr. He talks about his past during an exclusive interview with the reporters from China.org.cn.You can』t expect this kind of meandering mood from a 95-year-old unless he』s talking about the memories from the past.

何兆武先生開始與翻譯結緣是在上大學的時候，最初的目的是「為了搞一點外快」。他翻譯的第一本書是盧梭的《社會契約論》——他稱之為「資產階級自由論的聖經」。後來為了生計，也是興趣使然，他又陸續翻譯了大大小小20多本書。

Mr. He got into translation during his college year. At the beginning, he simply wanted to 「gain some pocket money.」 The first book he ever translated was Du Contract Social by Rousseau, which he referred to as the 「bourgeoisie』s bible of liberalism.」 Later he translated over 20 books of lengths long and short as a means of livelihood, and for the purpose of having fun.

何兆武先生回憶道，那時候同學們每個人都要找一點兼職賺外快。做翻譯、到中學教書、去報館兼差……報館都是在晚上工作，幹完活兒第二天還可以上課。「那是打仗的時候，窮得要命，所以譯出一本書來，這一學期的生活費用就有了著落。」

Mr. He recalls the past when all his school mates did part-time jobs for a little extra money on the side, be it translator, middle school teacher, or office clerk at a newspaper press. The schedule of newspaper press allowed these students to work at night and return to their class the next morning. 「People were extremely poor during the wartime, and translating one book alone can put bread on your table for a whole semester.」

何兆武先生稱，做翻譯也是一個學習的過程。翻譯過以後，自己對原著的理解也確實能夠提高一些。「因為只是看書的時候，這句話半懂不懂也就過去了；可你要是做翻譯，你不能把這個句子刪掉啊，所以要比較深刻地了解，一定要懂得這句話是什麼意思。這樣就等於通過翻譯自己學習。」

Mr. He also argues that translation is a process to educate oneself. You』d gain a better understanding of the original text after you translate it. 「When you read a book and something comes across as vague, you might just let it go. But when you』re translating, there』s no way you could remove the sentence. You』ve got to think deeply and figure out its meaning. This is how you learn through translating.」

何兆武先生與西南聯大的淵源很深，愛人、兩個姐姐、一個妹妹都是這個學校的。他在西南聯大做了7年學生，度過了美好的時光。在他口述的《上學記》一書中，也記錄了這段往事。

With his wife and three sisters also attending NSAU, Mr. He has a deep connection with the university. He was a student there for seven years and has quite enjoyed the days. In his dictated memoirGoing to School , those years came to life.

「我當時沒有參加任何政治組織。很多同學都是很熱誠的，有參加三青團的（三民主義青年團），屬於國民黨那部分；也有參加民主黨派的；還有參加共產黨的，當然那是隱蔽的，不過大家大概都知道一點兒。但是我覺得自己沒有那個水平去搞政治活動，不知道到底他們講的是真的還是假的，能相信還是不能相信，所以我一個都沒參加。我有些很熟的朋友也是參加了組織的，平日生活中相處得都很好，不過他們有左派的，也有右派的，彼此之間也會有矛盾、有衝突。當然大家都是一致抗日的。」圖為《上學記》中收錄的何兆武先生青年時期的照片。

「I wasn』t in any political group back then. A lot of my school mates were passionate. Some of them joinedSanqingtuan (Youth League of Three People』s Principles) of the Kuomintang, some were more into the democratic parties. There were some who joined the Communist Party, who, of course, did it in discreet. But everybody knew at least something about it. I, on the other hand, didn』t think myself good enough to deal with the political activities. I didn』t know whether the things they were preaching were real or not, trustworthy or not. That』s why I didn』t join any of the groups. Some of my close friends picked their own group. We still got along pretty well in life, but there used to be leftists, rightists, so conflicts and quarrels were inevitable. But of course when it came to the resistance of the Japanese, not a single person would disagree.」 The photo of Mr. He when he was young is included in his memoir Going to School.

「日本飛機天天來炸，所以我們天天跑警報。比如說，到了上午10點鐘，就拉警報了，說日本飛機已經起飛了，大概半個小時就可以飛到昆明上空。那時候年輕，半個小時可以跑出十里地去，就跑到郊外——山洞裡、陰溝里，跑去躲著；他們走了再回來上課。幾乎每天都有。當然也遇到過危險，有的同學就炸死了。」

「The Japanese』s bombers would come every day, and the alarm would go on and on. For instance, the alarm would go on at 10 am, so we knew that the bombers had taken off, in about half an hour they』d reach the sky above Kunming. I was young back then, and I could cover ten miles』 land in that half an hour. So I』d run to the suburbs, caves, drains, and just hide there until they were gone. Only then would I go back to class. This happened almost every single day. And of course, there were casualties. I lost some of my schoolmates to the bombings.」

何兆武先生回憶起西南聯大時期的一位恩師——張奚若先生。「張先生是政治系主任，我上過他兩年課。我是歷史系的學生，沒有必要上政治系的課；可是我覺得聽他講課很有意思，就跑去聽了。那個時候也有這個好處，就是非常自由，像我是歷史系的學生，跑去聽政治系的課，也沒有人干涉。」圖為何兆武先生收藏的《張奚若文集》。

Mr. He recalls one of the teachers from whom he benefited a lot during his years at the NSAU, Professor Zhang Xiruo. 「Professor Zhang was the head of the department of politics. I took his class for two years. I studied at the Department of History, so I didn』t need to take a course in the Department of Politics. But I found his lectures to be very interesting, so I went anyway, which was a valuable thing back then—you had the liberty to do a lot of things. I was a history student, but I went for a course at the Department of Politics, and nobody would stop me.」 The photo shows a copy of A Collected Essays of Zhang Xiruo in Mr. He』s collection.

「我們做學生的時候，張先生指定了《共產黨宣言》是必讀書目，而且讀完要考試的。那時候還是國民黨統治的時期，可是馬克思的著作我們拿來看也覺得很有興趣，開闊了自己的眼界。」解放後，張奚若先生曾經擔任新中國第二任教育部部長。圖為何兆武先生家中書架上的《資本論》。

「When we were students, Professor Zhang has assigned Manifesto of the Communist Party as a compulsory read, and we had to take an exam for it. China was under the ruling of the Kuomintang back then, but we had a lot of fun reading a work by Marx. It has broadened our horizon.」 After the liberation, Professor Zhang became the second Minister of Education of the new China. The photo shows a copy of Capital on Mr. He』s bookshelf.

何兆武先生在西南聯大求學的7年中，先後讀了土木、歷史、哲學和外文4個專業。他說：「求學的話應該面要寬廣一點兒，不能太窄了。太窄了，你就看不見全貌。比如說，你是中國人，當然要知道中國的歷史；可是，如果你整個世界歷史都不知道的話，你這中國歷史了解得也不深刻。」

During his seven years at the NSAU, Mr. He took four majors: civil engineering, history, philosophy, and foreign languages. He said, 「When you study, do so in diversity. You can』t just study one or two things, for they won』t allow you to see the whole picture. For instance, you』rea Chinese, of course you need to know about the Chinese history. But if you know nothing about the world history, you can』t really understand the history of China.」

何兆武先生家中的書架上，堆滿了關於歷史的書籍，有中文的，也有外文的。他說自己對歷史有興趣，否則也不會幹這一行。「無論什麼工作，你一定要有興趣才好。沒有興趣，硬著頭皮去干，那實在沒有意思。」

The bookshelf in Mr. He』s home are flooded with books on history, both in Chinese and other languages. According to him, he only does this job because he』s interested in history. 「No matter what you do, you had better like it. If you don』t like it, and you force yourself to do it, it』s just no fun.」

而關於外語，何兆武先生認為語言是一種工具，每個人都得學。「沒有一個文盲，他不認識字，就能夠有很豐富的知識的。」至於如何學好外語，何兆武先生的建議是：大量廣泛地閱讀。「開始學的時候當然有困難，你看的多了，困難自然就少了。我們做學生的時候還要規定，比如你這個學期要看10本小說，看多了你自然就可以慢慢看懂。」

Talking about foreign language, Mr. He refers to it as a tool that everybody should learn to use. 「Illiterate people who can』t read will never get to know a lot of things.」 To the question of how do you manage a foreign language, Mr. He suggests to read enormously and diversely. 「Of course it』s hard at the beginning, but as you read more, it will be less hard. We even had hard-fixed rules during the school years, for instance, you』re reading ten novels this semester. Along the way, the books would all just make sense to you.」

何兆武先生年輕時喜歡看電影；他最喜歡的影星是英格麗·褒曼（Ingrid Bergman），曾經看過十幾部她出演的片子。這個愛好對語言學習也很有幫助。「那時候，電影院放映的大部分是好萊塢電影，都是英文的。看電影也不貴，大概一兩毛錢看一次。你每個月看一次電影，看上一年，看了十幾部，大致就都可以聽懂了。這就好比你到上海，開頭不懂上海話，住個一年兩年，你也會了。」

Mr. He loved to watch movies when he was young. Favorite movie star being Ingrid Bergman, he』s seen a dozen of movies that starred her. This hobby also helps with the learning of foreign languages. 「Back then, the theatres screened lots of Hollywood movies, and they weren』t dubbed at all. It wasn』t expensive to go to one, costing you around 10 or 20 cents (1.4-2.8 US cent). You go to the movies once a month and do that for a whole year, then you would』ve seen about a dozen and you would』ve understood them all. It』s like when you go to Shanghai and you don』t understand a thing of Shanghainese, but then you live there for a couple of years and you』ll master the language.」

何兆武先生著作等身，他的論著先後結集為《歷史與歷史學》、《歷史理性批判論集》、《中西文化交流史論》等；此外，他還譯有盧梭的《社會契約論》、帕斯卡爾的《思想錄》、康德的《歷史理性批判文集》、羅素的《西方哲學史》等。

Mr. He has authored numerous great works. Many of his essays were published in collections: History and Its Methodology, A Collection of Rational Criticism Essays on History, On the History of Communion Between China and the West, etc. His translation works include Du Contract Social by Rosseau, Les Pensées by Pascal, A Collection of Rational Criticism Essays on History by Kant,A History of Western Philosophy by Russell, etc.

何兆武先生後來在學校里教授世界史，同時開始翻譯一些相關的西方學術著作。他翻譯的時候，最想傳達的是作者對於過去歷史的看法。「每個國家、每個民族都有他的歷史，你要是一點兒都不知道，我覺得就是個缺欠。外國史也是人類歷史的一部分，而歷史的東西是有價值的。」

Mr. He went on to teach world history in college, and began to translate relevant western academic works. What he wanted to convey through the translation was the authors』 thoughts on the past history. 「Every country and every nation has its own history. If you don』t know anything about it, it』s a great loss for you. The history of other countries is part of human history, and everything in history is valuable.」

何兆武先生說，自己的譯作基本都是關於思想史方面的，這是他的興趣所在。「因為書太多了，不能都翻，只能挑著你感覺有興趣的翻譯。感興趣的，工作質量就好一點；不感興趣的硬要你干，干著沒有趣味的事情，質量不高。因為要想翻譯質量高，一定要你鑽進去；對它沒興趣，就不會用心。」2015年4月20日，中國翻譯協會向何兆武先生頒發了「翻譯文化終身成就獎」。

Mr. He says, almost all his translation works are about the intellectual history, and that』s what interests him the most. 「There are just too many books to be translated, you can only pick so many that you』re interested in. When you like what you do, you work better. If you don』t and you are forced to do the uninteresting thing, there』s no way you can work well. You have to be absorbed in a book in order to translate it well. You won』t be, if you』re not interested in it.」 On April 20, 2015, the Translators Association of China (TAC) honored Mr. He with TAC』s Lifetime Achievement Award in Translation.

何兆武先生建議年輕的翻譯工作者們，要培養興趣，勤加練習。「什麼東西都要實踐，自己去體會；做翻譯也要自己練習。找兩本感興趣的書自己練著翻，翻多了積累了經驗，就比較省事了。」圖為《何兆武先生獲「翻譯文化終身成就獎」》的剪報。

Mr. He』s word for the young translators is, you should cultivate the interest and practice a lot. 「Do a little bit of everything, and gain an experience for yourself. Translate something just for your own practice. Find a couple of books that you』re interested in, and translate them just for the sake of it. It gets easier as you translate more and gain more experience.」 The photo shows a newspaper article headlined 「Lifetime Achievement Award Goes to Mr. He Zhaowu.」

現在因為身體原因，何兆武先生已經不再工作了。他自嘲：「我今年快96了，這個歲數活不下去了。即使活到一百歲，那也不算真正地活，真正想干點兒什麼事那幹不了了。」然而即使終日卧床，他的床鋪邊也常年放著幾摞書，偶爾還是會出於興趣翻一翻。圖為何兆武先生一天的作息表。

For health reasons, Mr. He doesn』t work anymore. He mocks himself saying, 「I』m almost 96 years old now. You don』t live very long after you get there. Even if you』d make it to 100 years, it wouldn』t be real 『living,』 since you wouldn』t be able to do what you really want to do.」 However, even though he』s in bed all day long, there are always a few stacks of books beside his bed, and he still translates for fun from time to time. The photo shows a daily schedule of Mr. He.

何兆武先生卧室的窗台上擺著家人的照片，正對著他的書桌。那張黑白照片上的是他已經去世的愛人。

On the windowsill of Mr. He』s bedroom, there are some photos of his family. Among them, the one in black and white is his deceased wife.

採訪結束後，何兆武先生堅持起身親自將我們送到門口。

After the interview, Mr. He insists on getting up and walking us to the doorway.

清華大學校園西南角一棟普普通通的居民樓，著名歷史學家、翻譯家何兆武先生就住在這裡。

A common-looking apartment building at the southwest corner of Tsinghua University』s campus, this is where Mr. He Zhaowu, renowned historian and translator lives.

後記

何兆武先生求學時物質生活極其艱苦，卻因為翻譯這一興趣得到精神上的啟蒙之樂。他說他翻譯的作品中大多是由於偶然、興之所至，可見興趣才是最好的老師。

欄目策劃：

北京中外翻譯諮詢有限公司

圖文刊登 ：中國網

《翻譯家何兆武先生：要做自己感興趣的東西》

李瀟/文 陳博淵/圖

英文翻譯：

譯魚—在線人工翻譯平台

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