休伊特訪談丨「你花時間學習巴赫，他必然回報你很多」

鋼琴家休伊特《在現代鋼琴上演奏巴赫》（一）

Taking Time With Bach

巴赫：一生相伴作者：阿蘭·拉斯布里傑（Alan Rusbridger ）

Angela Hewitt is one of the foremost living interpreters of Bach. Her world tour brings her to London"s Wigmore Hall next week. She talks to Alan Rusbridger about the joy and difficulty of playing Bach.

安吉拉·休伊特是當今最頂尖的巴赫詮釋者之一。下周，作為其世界巡演的一環，休伊特將在威格莫爾大廳獻演。她向阿蘭·拉斯布里傑談起了演奏巴赫的酸甜苦辣。

鋼琴大師安吉拉·休伊特

Alan Rusbridger: Some pianists would think, "It"s enough for me to play this, without having to explain." Do you have an instinct as a teacher?

阿蘭·拉斯布里傑（以下簡稱「拉」）：有些鋼琴家會想：「這個我不要再彈了，無需解釋」。你是否有當教師的天性？

Angela Hewitt: I do, although I don"t teach regularly. I refuse all private lessons, simply as a matter of time. I hardly have time to do my own work. But yes, I think I"ve always liked to put words to music, whether it"s writing about the pieces as I do in my notes, or giving pre-concert talks, or explaining in the masterclass why I take such-and-such a decision for interpretation. I did have some excellent teachers who gave me that. I think that if you are an interpreter and also can explain what you are doing, it helps people an awful lot. You can get a lot from just listening to someone but to have them explain to you "Why?", that is another thing entirely.

安吉拉·休伊特（以下簡稱「休」）：有的，雖然教課不是我的常規。出於時間的考慮，我拒絕所有的私課。我自己的事都做不完。但確實，我想我總是很願意談論音樂，無論是有關音樂作品的我的個人筆記，音樂會之前的導賞，還是在大師班上解釋我為什麼決定這樣或那樣去演繹作品。我有些很棒的老師也這樣給予過我。我覺得，如果你作為一位詮釋者，能夠去解釋你所做的，那真是讓大眾受益頗多。你當然可以光靠聽別人演奏就學到很多，但是讓他們向你解釋背後的奧秘，那又是一件全新的事情。

AR: Has being forced to articulate what you are doing taken you to a different level in your playing?

拉：被要求解釋自己所做的，這種經歷是否曾幫助你提升自己的演奏境界？

AH: I think so. Having to really explain rhythmic alterations in Baroque music - why you double dot, where you double dot, and not just because you feel like it, but to have the reasons for it. To really have a think about keys in Bach and what keys express a certain feeling and if there are indeed keys that seem to express certain emotions for Bach, which I think there are. It made me think about things more consciously. That has helped my interpretation, for sure. I think the two work together – the vast knowledge I gain by the performing, and also the thinking about it and the wanting to articulate it.

休：我想是的。比如和別人好好解釋一下巴洛克音樂里的節奏替換：為什麼彈成雙附點，什麼時候這麼做？不能只是由著性子來，而是需要有道理。又比如，認真想想巴赫音樂的調性，特定的調性表達特定的感受，對於巴赫來說，是不是有這種情況？我想是有的。這讓我更有意識地去思考，這肯定有助於我的詮釋。通過演奏來掌握大量的知識，同時對這些知識進行思考並熱切地表達出來，這兩件事情我是一起考慮的。

AR: Where have you learnt from, if there are so few written sources?

拉：如果說文字資料很匱乏，你是從哪兒學習的？

AH: A combination. I admire the people who go into all the libraries and gather up all the original information. I haven"t done that, I must say, although I try to keep abreast of all the recent biographies – the Christoph Wolf biography of Bach and all the new publications, certainly. Basically it comes from the experience with his music, combined with reading. For instance, I"m always saying that I was glad that when I did the recordings, that I did the partitas and the French suites first before I got into the fugues. I learnt so much about the dances in Bach. There are so many pieces in the Well-Tempered Clavier that are dances, but you have to recognise them and then you have to know what to do with them. So that was a help… I learnt from books, from experience, not so much from pianists, I must say. I listened to harpsichordists, to orchestras, to people like John Eliot Gardiner and the early music crowd.

休：是一種綜合。我很佩服那些去圖書館裡搜集大量原始信息的人。老實說，我沒這麼干過，雖然我會儘力不落下近期的傳記，比如沃爾夫（Christoph Wolf）撰寫的巴赫傳記，當然還有其它各種新的出版物。基本來說，我靠的是有關他音樂的經驗，再結合一些閱讀。比如，我總是說我很高興在錄音的時候先錄了帕蒂塔和法國組曲，之後才是賦格。有關巴赫的舞曲，我學了很多。《十二平均律》里有特別多的曲目都是舞曲，但你得辨認出來，然後得知道該怎麼處理。所以說，這確實幫了忙。（譯者註：和《十二平均律》里不「明說」的舞曲元素不同，巴赫的帕蒂塔和法國組曲大都遵循巴洛克時期的古組曲形式，其基礎是「阿勒曼德-庫朗特-薩拉班德-吉格」這互成對比的四種舞曲，此外還可能添加「幻想曲」，「前奏曲」和「詠嘆調」等樂章，以及「小步舞曲」、「加沃特」、「波蘭舞曲」等等其它舞曲。）我從書里學習，從經驗里學習，但我得說，我沒從鋼琴家們那兒學到太多。我聽羽管鍵琴，聽管弦樂隊，聽約翰·艾略特·加德納等等，還有周圍的早期音樂。

AR: Why harpsichordists?

拉：為什麼是羽管鍵琴演奏家？

AH: Pianists often annoy me! A lot of them, I feel, don"t play it in a true Baroque style. I still listen to them of course. I still listen to Edwin Fischer and admire the wonderful architecture he can build in a fugue. Schiff also. I think in many ways his playing is the closest to mine. I do think there"s a way of playing Bach at the piano that is still stylistically correct and that"s what I"m looking for.

休：鋼琴家們經常讓我厭煩。我感覺，很多鋼琴家都沒有彈出真正的巴洛克風格。當然，我還是會聽他們的演奏。我聽埃德溫·費舍爾，讚歎他在賦格里的漂亮結構。席夫我也聽，我感覺從很多方面來看，他的演奏和我最接近。我真的認為有辦法在現代鋼琴上彈出風格正確的巴赫，這正是我要追求的。

AR: Do you practice a trill very regularly and then break it down into sixteen notes and then try and forget it and do it naturally?

拉：你會不會很規範地練習顫音，然後加快到十六分音符，然後試著忘掉它，習慣成自然？

AH: That"s one way of doing it. And I think probably at first for a lot of kids that"s the best way. Of course it"s much harder to play it freer and keep the other hand steady. What I found in the end, is that you have to think of the other hand, not the trill. You have to think of shaping the more singing notes and let the trill go. But that"s a very difficult thing to do. But sometimes, a measured trill, there is a place for that.

休：這是辦法之一。我還認為，對於很多孩子來說，這是最好的辦法。當然，更加自由地演奏它並且保持另一隻手的穩定，這要難得多。我最終發現，你得關注另一隻手，而不是顫音。你必須想著如何塑造那些更加歌唱化的音符，顫音就放一邊讓它顫著。不過這還是很困難的。而有時候，控制得更精準的顫音也有用武之地。

AR: What are the most controversial things about playing Bach?

拉：關於演奏巴赫，什麼事情爭議最大？

AH: I think the issue of timing, of rubato. I"ve had so many comments about that. In Singapore, the head piano teacher at the Conservatory came to me and said, "You don"t know what a great gift you"ve given us. The attitude here is that Bach has to be strict and unbending and rigid and you can"t take any time, and yours was so wonderful and free and expressive and singing. It"s just been a revelation."

休：我想是時間的問題，自由速度。關於這個，我收到過很多很多評論。在新加坡，音樂學院的首席鋼琴教師過來和我說：「你可不知道你送給我們一件什麼樣的大禮。在這兒，巴赫必須刻板嚴格，不能有任何時值搖擺，而你的演奏卻那麼自由美妙，具有歌唱的表現力。的確很受啟發。」

If there"s one thing I can get across to people is that Bach does not have to be rigid and strict and that taking time is allowed. Of course, it has to be done intelligently. Usually it"s used to highlight the architecture or the harmonies and not just because you feel like taking a bit of time in that bar. You have to have a reason for it.

如果有一件事我能向大家澄清，那就是演奏巴赫並不是必須精準嚴格，時值搖擺是允許的。當然，必須處理得很明智。通常這被用來凸顯結構框架或者和聲，並不只是因為你喜歡在某個小節做自由速度。你必須有這麼做的理由。（編者按：關於這一點，很多人誤以為自由節拍——Rubato——是浪漫派才有的，這也未免太不懂音樂的精神了，關於這一點可以參見盛原老師的研究。）

I also think that using the Fazioli piano has really made a difference too. You can get so many different colours in it, so many tiny variations of colour, of touch, that it"s really added so much to my musical imagination.

我還認為，使用法奇奧里鋼琴，可以帶來明顯不同。你能獲得如此多樣的色彩，如此多的細微的色調和觸鍵變化。這大大豐富了我的音樂想像。

It"s funny, when I go back on this tour, to playing with, shall we say, a piano beginning with S, I have to play a lot more, you know, every note. Especially when I"m playing lightly and maybe quick, it has to be much more every note emphasised. I don"t like that. It"s not how I play anymore. I"m much more tired at the end too. But I think in combination with the Fazioli I"ve become more creative with my colour and sound and phrasing.

很有趣的是，當我回到我的巡演中來，用一架…我們就叫它「斯某某」鋼琴吧，用它演奏，我必須給得多很多，每個音符都是。特別是當我彈得輕巧快捷時，每個音符都要更多地被強調。我不喜歡這樣，這不再是我演奏的方式。到最後我會累得多。而在使用法奇奧里鋼琴時，在色彩，音響和句法上我都變得更加具有創造力。

AR: Just talk a bit about what it"s like living with Bach.

拉：稍微談談和巴赫生活在一起的感受吧。

AH: Well, he"s a pretty good friend. He"s a demanding friend, I tell you! He gives me sore muscles in my neck! But every minute I spend in his company is worthwhile. I don"t think that there"s any other repertoire that I could have repeated so often as I"m doing on this world tour and absolutely never get tired of it. It"s still a challenge. It"s still growing. I"m still perfecting it. He is demanding. He demands great discipline and co-ordination and heart. I feel so much that it"s worth it.

休：嗯，他是一個非常棒的朋友。我得告訴你，他可不是省油的燈！他鬧得我脖子疼！但是，和他相伴的每一分鐘，都是值得的。我不認為還有任何其它的曲目集能讓我如此頻繁地重複演奏，就像在這次世界巡演里一樣，沒有絲毫厭倦。它仍具挑戰，仍在成長，我還在打磨。他很苛刻，要求強大的自控，協調，以及心性。我打心底里認為值得。

Certainly, all the time you put into learning Bach, it helps you so much with all the other composers afterwards. Things like developing finger legato. So many times in master classes kids play Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin, and they have no finger legato at all. All the legato just on the pedal, it"s not the same at all. Just being able to play different voices, with different colours, that helps you with Beethoven too. The fluency you get in Bach, you apply to Mozart, Brahms as well. So I know that all the time I spend with Bach will make it easier with other things too.

你花時間學習巴赫，他必然回報你很多，幫助你面對其後的所有作曲家。比如鍛煉手指連奏。我無數次在大師班上，見到彈奏舒伯特、貝多芬和肖邦的孩子們完全沒有手指連奏。連奏全指望踏板，這完全是兩碼事。可以用不同的色彩演奏不同的聲部，這也能夠幫助你演奏貝多芬。彈巴赫時獲得的流暢感，你可以用在莫扎特和勃拉姆斯身上。所以我知道，花在巴赫上的所有時間，都讓我更從容地面對其它事情。

He has been quite demanding. I couldn"t have done, as I often say, the complete Bach and had four kids at the same time, no. When I began the tour, I couldn"t do all 48 from memory, but soon I took the score away from Book One, and in March, went for the whole thing. But it took me that length of time to really have it all safely in my memory. I think it"s a hundred times more work to play from memory than to play with a score.

他真是要求高。我常說，我簡直沒法一邊帶著四個孩子，一邊把巴赫全搞定，沒門。當我開始巡演時，我沒法把48首全都記住，但是很快我就把第一冊的譜子扔一邊了，到三月份，我全搞定了。但我花了如此長的時間，才牢牢記住它們。我覺得背譜演奏比看譜演奏費勁一百倍。

AR: Why does it matter?

拉：這個為什麼重要？

AH: A lot of people would say that it doesn"t matter, that nobody would care, but it matters to me. Firstly, I feel that the audience"s concentration is at a higher pitch when I"m doing it from memory, perhaps because they see the concentration on my face and it"s translated to them. Plus there"s no fooling with pages between prelude and fugue. And I didn"t want anyone else sitting there. You demand so much concentration that you don"t even want anyone sitting there, turning the pages.

很多人會說，背不背譜無所謂，沒人會在乎。但這對我來說很重要。首先，當我背譜演奏時，我會感受到聽眾更高的專註度，或許是因為他們看到了我臉上的專註，而這又反過來帶動了他們。另外，前奏曲和賦格之間也沒有了翻譜的尷尬。我不希望任何人坐在旁邊。你需要如此高的專註度，以至於不希望任何人坐在那兒翻譜子。

AR: You"ve been playing this programme for six, seven, eight months. How much does the music continue to reveal itself to you while you"re living with it?

拉：你演奏這套節目已經有六到八個月了。在與這些音樂相伴的日子裡，它們在何種程度上不斷地向你吐露自身？

AH: Up until a month ago it was changing. I"d find different things to do. I don"t think now it"s going to change dramatically. Just that it will become more part of me each time, which translates into being more authoritative.

直到約一個月之前，它都在變化。我會找到不同的事情去做。現在我不認為它在劇烈變化了，只是它將一次次地變得更加屬於我，變得更有說服力。

AR: Is part of the pleasure of playing live feeling that you suddenly have a different kind of connection with the audience?

拉：關於現場演奏帶來的快樂，是否有什麼東西讓你突然感受到和聽眾之間別樣的關聯？

AH: You"re usually hugely influenced by piano and hall and audience, but the two most important things are the piano and the acoustic in the hall. Also the audience. The greatest gift they can give me is silence. I have decided that coughing or not coughing is a matter totally of discipline and respect for the artist and for the music. In Tokyo, there were people with the face masks on who made no noise at all during the whole 48! But in other halls it"s just constant and it can drive you crazy. Especially when you"re playing fugues. A combination of the audience, the piano and the silence in the hall. That"s when you give your best and most colourful performances.

休：你常常會被鋼琴、音樂廳和聽眾影響很多，但是最重要的兩件事還是鋼琴和廳堂音響。聽眾也重要。聽眾能給我的最大饋贈就是安靜。我已經有了結論：咳不咳嗽完全是紀律問題，是尊不尊重藝術家和音樂的問題。在東京，有人帶著口罩但卻一聲不響地聽完了48首！但在其它音樂廳，咳嗽聲不斷，讓人抓狂，特別是在演奏賦格的時候。聽眾，鋼琴，還有安靜的大廳，有這樣的結合，你就能完成最棒最鮮活的演奏。

AR: Can Baroque music simultaneously be romantic?

拉：巴洛克音樂能否也是浪漫的？

AH: It"s not romantic like Schumann, no, but if you use "romantic" to mean "very expressive", then, yes, I think so. Pieces like the B flat minor prelude, which is very tragic and romantic. Or the Variation 25 of the Goldberg. It"s very intense. You can"t get much more romantic than that. It"s romantic for his time. As a kid, I was often criticised for making things too romantic, but I think what they meant was too expressive.

休：不像舒曼那樣浪漫，不像的，但是如果你的「浪漫」指的是「富有表現力」，那麼，我的答案是「能」。比如《降b小調前奏曲》這樣的曲子，多麼悲傷和浪漫。或者《哥德堡變奏曲》的第25變奏，十分強烈。你簡直沒法更加浪漫了。在他的時代，這就是浪漫的。小時候，我總是被批評搞得太過浪漫，但我認為他們說的其實是太具有表現性了。

安吉拉·休伊特演奏舒曼鋼琴協奏曲（引子和快板）

AR: You mentioned Edwin Fischer. Are there other people of that generation that you get inspiration from?

拉：你提到了埃德溫·費舍爾。他的同代人里還有沒有誰帶給你靈感？

AH: Kempff. You know that marvellous record of transcriptions? You want something romantic - that"s romantic - Bach. The joy, the sorrow. He came from a family of organists and evidently could transpose any of the 48, which I certainly couldn"t do! Who else is there? Gould I listen to, but I could never imitate him. It was too much him, and not enough Bach, for me. Rosalyn Tureck of course, I grew up on – The Well-Tempered Clavier - although I did always find it a bit lugubrious, not lively enough for me.

休：肯普夫。你知道那些了不起的改編曲錄音吧？你想來點浪漫的巴赫，就是它們。那歡樂與悲傷。他來自一個管風琴之家，據信能夠移調演奏所有的48首，這我真的做不到！還有誰呢？我也聽古爾德，但是我絕不會模仿他，對我來說，這太個人化了，不夠巴赫。羅莎琳·圖蕾克當然也是，我聽她的《十二平均律》長大，不過對我來說，它有點太憂傷，不夠活潑。

AR: Of the 48, what are the ones that you have grown to love most?

拉：在48首裡面，有哪些令你逐漸著迷？

AH: The C sharp minor, Book One, that wonderful fugue. It comes so early on too, you have to be ready for it, but it"s marvellous. Oh my God, there are so many! The G minor, from Book Two, which is a real organ fugue, a fantastic prelude too. Book Two is much more demanding on you in a way.

休：第一冊里美妙的《升c小調賦格》。它來得太快，你必須做好準備，不過它棒極了！哦天吶，還有很多！第二冊的「g小調」，是個真正的管風琴賦格，還有一個幻想式的前奏曲。某種程度上看，第二冊的要求高得多。

Book One is more extrovert, more easily accessible. The preludes in Book Two are much bigger pieces. The fugues in Book Two tend to be more dense, more complicated to understand. Book Two is Bach writing for himself, I feel.

第一冊更加外向，更容易接近，而第二冊的那些前奏曲是大得多的作品。第二冊的賦格也更加緻密，理解起來更複雜。我感覺，第二冊是巴赫寫給自己的。

The second half of Book Two is the most difficult to make your way through, but it is the richest. You have to save yourself for it. It"s the most demanding.

第二冊的後半部分是最難拿下的，但也是最豐富的。你必須自己謹慎面對，它是要求最高的。

Book One we have in manuscript. Book Two we don"t. All the copies we had of Book Two were copies his students made and sometimes there are annotations by Bach in the margin, but there are a lot more variants, little tiny variants in notes or ornamentations that he added at a later date. So there are more decisions to make about textual things.

第一冊我們有手稿，但第二冊沒有。我們掌握的第二冊拷貝來自於巴赫的學生，有時候樂譜邊角上會有巴赫的注釋，但還有更多的變化，因為巴赫之後又針對音符或裝飾記號做了小改動。所以在文本選擇上有很多文章可做。

AR: What"s the secret of pedalling Bach?

拉：彈巴赫的踏板秘訣是什麼？

AH: What"s the secret? The secret is to figure it out with the fingers first – is to do all the articulation, all legato, whatever you want to do, do it all with the fingers first and then bring in the pedal if there"s something you really can"t join and want to have joined. That"s the secret, I think, to use it only when required. How beautiful it can sound without pedal in the B flat minor. It"s very difficult to do and takes great, great control.

休：秘訣？秘訣就是先用手指來解決，所有的演奏法，連奏，你想做的一切，全部先用手指來做，之後如果確實還有沒法完成卻又想加入進來的東西，再用上踏板。我想，這就是秘訣，只在必要的時候用。即使不用踏板，那首「降b小調」也可以十分美妙，但這很難做到，需要極好、極好的控制。

In a drier hall, I would use a little bit more pedal, but never to blur a passage. For instance, at the end of Book One, the big B minor fugue, I might use it on every sixteenth note. I would pedal each note to give it a bit more resonance.

在混響比較乾的音樂廳，我會稍微多用一點踏板，但絕不把段落搞得很糊。比如第一冊最後的《b小調賦格》，我或許會在每個十六分音符上分別使用踏板，給它們稍多的共鳴。

Soft pedal can be very useful. On the Steinway in Singapore, it was best to avoid it. But on the Fazioli you can really use it to great effect, to get just a little bit more. Or you could use the fourth pedal too, if you like, if you"re playing something very rapid. On the 308, and also on my [Fazioli model] 278, he puts on a fourth pedal. It lowers the keyboard and at the same time the hammer comes closer to the keys so you don"t get so much attack. For Beethoven I use it, you know the end of Opus 10, No. 2? You put that fourth pedal down and it"s a breeze.

弱音踏板非常有用。在新加坡的那架斯坦威上，最好不用。但是對於法奇奧里鋼琴，你的確可以用它來製造漂亮的效果，做得多一點點。或者，如果你喜歡，你還可以在急速演奏的時候使用第四踏板。在法奇奧里308型，或者在我的278型上，加裝了第四踏板。它讓鍵盤降低，同時讓琴槌和琴鍵離得更近，所以不會有太多敲擊感。彈貝多芬的時候我會用上它，你知道作品十之二嗎？踩下第四踏板後，相當輕巧。

AR: What is it about the Fazioli that you"ve come to love so much?

拉：法奇奧里為什麼讓你如此喜愛？

AH: It"s the response. It"s the clarity. It lives under my fingers. I think that"s the main thing. I hold those long chords in the D major fugue – and I hold and hold and hold that chord because of the resonance and the harmonics. On other pianos you don"t want to hold it that long because it sounds flat, but not on the Fazioli. I really do notice the difference in my muscles when I have to play Steinway rather than Fazioli. I"m much more tired physically with Steinway than I am with a Fazioli.

休：因為反饋，因為清晰性。它就像活在我的指端，我想這就是關鍵。在《D大調賦格》里，我保持那些長時值和弦，我保持，保持，再保持，為的是共鳴與和聲。在其它鋼琴上，你不會想保持這麼久，因為聲音聽起來很乏味，但法奇奧里不會。比較起來，在不得不演奏斯坦威的時候，我會注意到我肌肉上的差別。斯坦威會比法奇奧裡帶來多得多的生理疲勞。

AR: What are the mistakes that pianists make when they play Bach, in your view?

拉：在你看來，鋼琴家演奏巴赫的時候會犯什麼錯誤？

AH: Lack of colour. They just play it all too much on the same level. When they play a six-page fugue and it"s all on the same level it"s awful! It"s terrible.

休；缺乏色彩。他們過多地保持在單一的層次上。當他們彈奏一首六頁的賦格時，只有一個層次，太可怕！這太恐怖了。

AR: How much do you bring out individual voices?

拉：你在多大程度上呈現出個性化的聲音？

AH: One of the true trademarks of a good Bach player is that you can do that. You should be able to play any passage in Bach in as many different ways as there are voices. To think horizontally. Everybody thinks vertically in Bach. I try to always think horizontally.

休：這正是一個優秀的巴赫演奏者真正的標誌之一。對於巴赫的任何篇章，你都應該能夠有多少聲部就採用多少種方式。要橫向思考。大家都在縱向思考巴赫，而我總是試著橫向思考。