為什麼中國不能逆向工程俄羅斯蘇35戰機的發動機

論壇地址：http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-468197-1-1.htmlHarvey King, born in Taiwan, grew up in US, family rooted in mainland China for centuries.Contrary to what many believed, China, even today, is severe behind in terms of technological know how.The area which China lacks behind the most is fundamental sciences: physics, mathematics, chemistry , MATERIAL SCIENCES, fluid mechanics, etc.One big part of jet engine is the metal used in the engine. US is by far most advanced in this department.Another area China is lacking is simply the fundamental industrial base to produce precision parts consistently. And Jet Engine requires a such inhuman level of precision, that China still struggles to achieve. Big part of having such industrial base are accumulation of experiences, and China, considered how late it came to the game, is catching up beyond anyone』s expectation.But most of elite still understand that China still have a long long way to go.與許多人的認知相反的是，中國甚至到了今天技術技巧也嚴重落後。在這個領域中國落後的原因是缺乏基礎科技：物理、數學、化學、材料科學、流體力學等等。發動機最重要的就是金屬材料，美國在這方面遙遙領先。另一方面中國缺乏的是能持續生產精確部件的基礎工業基地。而發動機卻要求一種極度的精確，中國仍然在為之努力。這種工業基地主要是不斷積累的結果，而中國遊戲參與得晚了，目前處於追趕超越的階段。但是大多數精英還是明白中國還有很長的路要走。 回復Wen Ling。Dec 27, 2016To some degree it is true. The catch-up game always lacks some foundation on basic science.It will take a generation or two to be on par with American/British. But it is achievable, as long as government still put 20% budget on education as now. It is just matter of time and dedication consistently. CPC has patience.The biggest advantage is China is its huge, single market, which can cultivate any industry.某種程度上是這樣的。追趕的路上總是缺少基礎科學方面的一些基礎。這將會花費一到兩代人的時間才能趕上英美的水平。但是這可以實現的，只要政府保持現在這樣將20%的預算花在教育上。這一貫只是時間和奉獻的問題。GCD有耐心。中國最大的優勢就是它巨大的單一市場，可以培養任何行業。Angus M RobinsonFeb 5, 2017 · 1 upvoteHarvey, with respect your opinion about Chinese industry capability and expertise in fundamental sciences is somewhat outdated. For example, China is moving quickly to become a world leader in additive manufacturing. I also don』t believe that your assertion that 『China is lacking the fundamental industrial base to produce precision parts consistently』 is in fact correct. It is often forgotten that Taiwanese, US and German firms have strong links in China and share technological capability platforms.Harvey，你對中國工業能力和基礎科學的認識已經有點過時了。舉個例子，中國在增材製造方面正迅速成為世界的領導者。我也不同意你聲稱的「中國缺乏能夠持續生產精密部件的工業基地」符合事實。人們常常忘記台灣、美國和德國公司在中國的緊密聯繫還有共享技術能力的平台。Lin Xieyi, Aviation EnthusiastThe picture above shows the Russian Yak-141 TVC Nozzle. In the 1990"s, the United States brought its TVC technology and used it on F-35. While China brought it"s R79-v300 engine technology and used it on WS-15.US and Chinese jet engine design were heavily influenced by the R79–V300(206 kN engine used for the Yak 141). The R79–300 was referenced by the US to become the P&W F119 and F135, while it became the WS-10 and WS-15 in China. It is certainly not a bolt to nut copy because it will be impossible to do so, without a certain level of critical tech-knowhow and mature industries, which is why only the UNSC big 5 can produce jet engines with TWR> 8 and only the US, Russia and China can produce turbofan jet engine with TWR>10.[1]Now let us take a look from another angle of this Sino-Russo deal which has been much hyped in the media.

上圖顯示了俄羅斯的雅克141的TVC噴管。在1990年代，美國購買了俄羅斯的TVC技術並將之應用在F35上。而中國則購買了R79-v300引擎技術並將之應用在WS-15上。美國和中國的戰機引擎受到了R79-V300（雅克141使用的206千牛的發動機）的重大影響。

R79-300的技術被美國參考，造出了普惠F119和F135，而在中國變成了WS10和WS15。當然不是一個螺栓一個螺母地複製，因為這根本做不到，沒有一定水平的關鍵技術知識和工業能力就做不出來，這也是為什麼只有安理會五巨頭可以生產推比大於8的發動機，並且只有美國、俄羅斯、中國才能生產推比大於10的渦輪風扇發動機。現在讓我們從另一個角度看待此次媒體上炒得火熱的中俄之間的交易。So.. Why did China procure the 24 SU-35 from Russia?To complement the insufficient production capability of J-10s and J-11. J-10』s 4 production lines are at full capacity , while J-11 production line has to cope with increasing J-15 and J-16 demand by the Navy and Air Force. The SU-35』s overall capability exceeds the J-10C and J-11D, so by procuring the 4.5Gen SU-35s, it plugs a gap which can only be filled before a sizeable number of 5.0Gen J-20A enter active service, which is a few years away.SU-35 is a good and affordable 4.5-Gen fighter jet which cost no more than US$80 million per plane, less than the F-15SE/F, 18F/G or Rafale, representing value for money in a market where it is rare to find any good 4–4.5Gen fighter jets costing less than US$100 million.The SU-35 deal also signify the good and amicable relationship between Russia and China as they bring their cooperation to a strategic partnership level.The SU-35』s thrust vectoring technology could be analysed to help improve existing and future WS-series indigenous engines.After so many flip-flop in decision, why did Russia finally decide to export the SU-35?It is the increasing sophistication of Chinese engines which prompted Russia to approve the deal, because once Chinese aerospace industry achieved the critical breakthrough in enhancing engine lifespan, Russian jet fighter engines will no longer be an appealing option for the Chinese air force. Those who keep saying China cannot produce advanced jet fighter engines is in for a shock soon, as production of the WS-10 series engines hit the high 300s, with the WS-13, 15, 18 ,20 series coming on board soon. Recent aviation news indicates that the J-20 stealth fighter are currently equipped with the 145-kN Taihang WS-10B turbofan, and will be mounted with the 180-kN Ermei WS-15 for test trials as early as next year.Russia is simply striking while the iron is hot when those fighter jets still have value To China.update25122016 : The first batch of SU-35 has arrived at Cangzhou.

為什麼中國從俄羅斯購買了24架蘇35？為的是補足J10和J11生產能力的缺口。J10的四條生產線滿負荷運轉。而J11的生產線還要設法滿足空軍和海軍對於J15heJ16的需求。蘇35的整體能力超過了J10c和J11D，所以通過購買4.5代的蘇35，可以在大量J20服役之前填補缺口，這個時間也沒有幾年了。蘇35是一架優秀的價格合理的4.5代戰機，沒加不超過8000萬美元，比F15SE/F18F/G和陣風都要便宜，買這個戰機很划算，市場上很難找到什麼一億美元以下的好的4到4.5代機。蘇35戰機的交易也是中俄友好關係的一種表示，兩國將他們的合作提升到了戰略夥伴的水平。蘇35的矢量推力技術可以被分析用來促進本土的目前存在的以及未來生產的WS系列發動機。決策上如此反覆之後，為什麼俄羅斯最終決定出口蘇35？是日益成熟的中國發動機促使俄羅斯同意了這項交易，因為一旦中國航空工業取得了提高發動機壽命的關鍵技術的突破，俄羅斯發動機將對於中國空降對於中國空軍來說不再是一個有吸引力的選項。這些說中國不能生產先進噴氣式戰機發動機的人接下來就會震驚的，ws10系列發動機的產量高達300餘，同時後面的ws13，15，18，20也很快了。近期的航空新聞顯示，J20隱形戰機目前裝備了145千牛的太行ws10b渦扇發動機，將來會裝備180千牛的峨眉ws15，明年就會進行測試。俄羅斯只是趁著這些戰機對中國還有價值的時候趕緊出手。更新：2016年12月25日：第一批蘇35運抵滄州。Kelvin TeeDec 29, 2016 · 1 upvoteActually what is the current progress on China"s jet engines?Some say the W10 is already installed and in use while some say that they still experience difficulties with its reliability so the Chinese are still importing Russians engines到底中國噴氣發動機的最新進展到哪一步了?一些人說ws10早就裝機交付使用了，而另一些人說他們仍然在可靠性方面面臨著困難，所以中國依然從俄羅斯進口發動機。
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