「美國優先」把世界推向中國
07-06
原創翻譯：龍騰網 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻譯：jiangye111 轉載請註明出處論壇地址：http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-473473-1-1.html[–]TheFlyingBoatFuck that noise. We"re kicking Trump out in 2020 and bringing back the American-led world order back. Our institutions are still strong for now. The repair to the decay will take some time, though.qnmd噪音。我們將在2020年將特朗普踢下台，並重新奪回美國主導的世界秩序。我們的體系現在仍然很強大。不過，修復腐爛的過程還需要一段時間。[–]WinterTeachingbringing back the American-led world order back.It"s dead, Jim. Everyone in the world has been chomping at their for your downfall.「重新奪回美國主導的世界秩序」它已經死了，吉姆。世界上所有人都在迫不及待地看你們的垮台。[–]Scatman_JeffPersonally, I think it is too late - the damage to your reputation is done. The US has proven themselves to be an unreliable, and unstable ally. Why would we (non-americans) prioritize diplomatic relations with the US when there is no guarantee that any agreement will be honoured by the succeeding administration?在我看來，我認為這已經太遲了——你們的聲譽已經受到了損害。美國已證明自己是一個不可靠、不穩定的盟友。為什麼在不能保證某些協議都能得到下屆政府認可的情況下，我們（非美國人）要優先處理與美國的外交關係？[–]TheFlyingBoatBecause you don"t have much of a choice? The EU is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst, China"s view of the global order is fundamentally at odds with the modern conception of human rights, freedom, liberal democracy, and general openness, and after that you are left with powers that will likely not possess the necessary power projection capabilities to prop up any global system 30-50 years from now. Also, in the present we are literally the only state with that capability.因為你們沒有太多的選擇？歐盟往好了說叫不可靠，往壞了說叫作死；中國對全球秩序的看法從根本上與現代意義上的人權、自由、自由民主和廣泛開放背道而馳，而且除此之外，你們只剩下了那些其必要的力量投射能力不足以從現在起支撐某種全球體系長達30-50年的國家。而且，在當前，我們實在是唯一擁有上述能力的國家。[–]Scatman_JeffBecause you don"t have much of a choice? The EU is unreliable at best and suicidal at worst,The EU is a more reliable, and more attractive option than the USChina"s view of the global order is fundamentally at odds with the modern conception of human rights, freedom, liberal democracy, and general openness.So is the US".You have a detention center where you torture and hold prisoners indefinitely, without due process.Your lack of workers rights is an embarrassment; Workers are not paid a reasonable wage, you are the only western country that does not guarantee maternity leave, never mind paternity leave.Your health care system is an embarrassment.You have a prison system more concerned with making a profit, and using prisoners as slave labour rather than rehabilitating them.You have imprisoned larger portion of your citizens than any other country in history.You are the only western country which still uses capital punishment.You have a president and major political party which has advocated for the imprisonment, and assassination of political opponents, and has encouraged violence against anyone critical of them.You have a political system which prioritizes corporate, and financial interests over the intrests and well being of Americans - the US is not a democracy.You have a military which has repeatedly overthrown democratically elected governments, and replaced them with brutal dictators sympathetic to American corporate interests.You have a military which indiscriminately bombs civilians, and simply defines any one who happens to be in the vicinity of the strike as a combatant.The US is not the shining city on a hill you think it is.China and the EU aren"t perfect, but they are viable alternatives.「因為你們沒有太多的選擇？歐盟往好了說叫不可靠，往壞了說叫作死」歐盟是一個比美國更可靠，更有吸引力的選擇。「中國對全球秩序的看法從根本上與現代意義上的人權、自由、自由民主和廣泛開放背道而馳」美國也是如此。你們有一個拘留中心，你可以在沒有正當程序的情況下，對囚犯進行折磨和關押。你們工人權利的缺乏是一種尷尬；工人們沒有得到合理的工資，你們是唯一一個不保證產假的西方國家，更不用談陪產假。你們的醫保體系很尷尬。你們的監獄系統更關心如何賺錢，並且把囚犯當作奴隸而不是讓改造修復他們。在歷史上，你們囚禁的公民比任何其他國家都多。你們是唯一一個仍在使用死刑的西方國家。你們有一個總統和主要政黨，主張監禁和暗殺政治對手，並鼓勵對任何批評他們的人實施暴力。你們的政治體制把企業和金融利益置於美國人的利益和福祉之上——美國不是一個民主國家。你們的軍隊曾多次推翻民主選舉產生的政府，取而代之的是那些傾向於保護美國企業利益的殘暴獨裁者。你們有一支無差別地轟炸平民的軍隊，而且將任何一個碰巧出現在空襲附近的人簡單地定義作為戰鬥人員。美國並不是你所想像的那個山頂之上的閃光之城。中國和歐盟並不完美，但它們是可行的替代方案。[–]SnowflakeModPersonally, I think it is too late - the damage to your reputation is done.Still have the largest economy and largest military. Never too late when you"re far ahead.「在我看來，我認為這已經太遲了——你們的聲譽已經受到了損害」（但我們）仍然擁有最強大的經濟和軍事力量。當你遙遙領先時，不存在什麼「太遲了」一說。[–]Scatman_Jeff Still have the largest economyNot for long.and militaryJust because you spend more on your military doesn"t mean it"s the most effective. We know what happened in Vietnam, And the current situation in the middle East shows that you would not be able to exert influence across the globe through hard power alone. You need soft power for that, and that is diminishing rapidly.「仍然擁有最強大的經濟」不會持續太久了「和軍事力量」僅僅因為你在軍事上花了更多的錢，並不意味著你的軍事力量就是最有效的。我們知道越南發生了什麼，而中東目前的局勢表明，僅靠硬實力，你將無法在全球施展影響力。你需要軟實力，而這正在迅速減少。[–]reeeessssaaaaMassachusetts China"s GDP doesn"t mean shit to anyone. They are going to have the largest economy only because they have over a billion people, if they had the same population as the U.S, their GDP would only be a 4th of what the U.S GDP is. Their people are dirt poor and only 20% have flushing toilets.中國的GDP並不意味著什麼。他們將擁有規模最大的經濟，但這僅僅是因為他們有10多億人口，如果他們擁有和美國一樣的人口。他們的GDP只會是美國的四分之一。他們的人民一貧如洗，只有20%的人有安馬桶的廁所。[–]Scatman_JeffThe US economy is considered the most influential precisely because it is GDP, not GDP/capita which is relevant.美國經濟之所以被認為是最有影響力的，恰恰是因為它是總GDP，而不是人均GDP。[–]reeeessssaaaaMassachusettsYou"re still forgetting that china has some pretty extreme problems like censorship, population, the environment, mass corruption in the military, extreme poverty, all the money being at the top, they will never be able to gain influence in the west because they don"t care about human rights. China"s GDP is like 9000 bucks compared to the U.S"s 58000 dollars.China"s influence in Africa isn"t even Trump"s fault, it"s because the U.S requires that countries receiving aid put it towards benefiting the country, China will give Africa money and if they put it in their personal bank account while the people starve, China doesn"t care.你仍然忘記了中國有一些非常極端的問題，比如審查、人口、環境、軍隊中的大規模fu敗、極度貧困、所有的錢都在頂層，他們永遠不能在西方獲得影響力，因為他們不關心人權。與美國相比，中國的GDP是9000美元，而美國是58000美元。中國在非洲的影響力甚至都不算特朗普的錯，而是因為美國要求受援國將其用於造福國家，而中國將資金給予非洲，如果受援國人民在挨餓，而這些資金卻被存入個人銀行賬戶，中國也不會在意。[–]Scatman_Jeff The US has 350 million people and a shrinking/stagnating middle class. China has 1.3 billion people and a rapidly growing middle class - that"s a lot of people who can buy a lot of shit, which in turn means they are gaining economic influence. That"s all there is to it.美國有3.5億人口，中產階級不斷萎縮/停滯不前。中國有13億人口，中產階級迅速壯大——這是很多消費能力很強的人，這反過來又意味著他們正在獲得經濟影響力。這就是事情的全部。[–]SnowflakeModStill have the largest economyNot for long.We"ll see about that. 
Automation is not going to be kind to the Chinese economy.「仍然擁有最強大的經濟」「不會持續太久了」我們會看到的。;-)工業自動化對於中國經濟來講可不是個好東西哦。[–]Scatman_JeffAutomation is not going to be kind to the US either. The countries that will fare the best with automation are those with the strongest social safety nets; something the US does not excel at.自動化對美國來說也不是什麼好東西。那些在自動化方面表現最好的國家是那些擁有最強大的社會保障網路的國家；而這卻是美國的短板。[–]SnowflakeModAutomation is not going to be kind to the US either.Of course not, but we"ve been moving away from manufacturing for decades as China has been moving into it.「自動化對美國來說也不是什麼好東西」當然是，但幾十年來我們一直在遠離製造業，因為中國已經進入了這個領域。[–]TheFlyingBoat America isn"t the most robust superpower due to corporate influence on the government, but rather in spite of it. It"s successful due to the incredible ability for it to globally export culture and morph the world into it"s own image through Hollywood, define the global infrastructure of the 21st century through Silicon Valley, control global financial flows and international affairs through NYC and DC. The UN, the World Bank, the IMF, etc. are all powerful tools at our disposal to shape global norms and practices that help enable us to project power and make the world more like us. You need to improve your parodying capabilities more. You aren"t funny and you aren"t caricaturing anyone well. If you did either of them, it"d be better.由於企業對政府的影響，美國並不是最強大的超級大國，但這種影響也成就了今天的美國。它之所以成功，是因為它具有令人難以置信的全球文化輸出能力，並通過好萊塢將世界變成自己的偶像，通過矽谷來定義21世紀的全球基礎設施，通過紐約和華盛頓控制全球金融流動和國際事務。聯合國、世界銀行、國際貨幣基金組織等機構都是我們掌握的強有力的工具，可以塑造全球規範和實踐，幫助我們投射實力，讓世界變得更像我們。你們需要更多地提高你們的模仿能力。你們沒意思，你們也沒有巧妙地諷刺到任何國家。如果你做到了其中任何一點，情況會就更好。[–]pornstar-martiniHonestly, I can"t see a) Trump being in office in 2019 and b) America not having self reflection and coming back harder and meaner with the mean racist underbelly sent back where they came from.老實說，我看不到a）特朗普在2019年還會出現在百宮裡； b）美國沒有進行自我反省，而且還變回了以前那麼刻薄和卑鄙，用種族主義的方式把移民趕了回去。[–][deleted]dropping completely out of tpp cedes an entire hemisphere to chinathe state department is basically non-functional, there are few ambassadors, and the direction of foreign policy in america is based on who has recently flattered the president the mostin addition, we just cut taxes right during the final buildup to a major recession and there"s no indication the government has any ability to deal with that recessionif we pull out of nafta, there"s another nail in the coffin. trump doesn"t understand many things, but certainly that america is a services based economy and standards of living are too great here to really compete with the secondary sectors of nations abroadbut hey at least we have someone that thinks virtually everything in life is a zero sum game, despite all evidence to the contrary完全退出tpp的做法將整個半球割讓給了中國美國國務院基本上是沒有發揮作用，大使很少，而且美國的外交政策方向是由最近拍總統馬屁最多的人決定的此外，我們只是在引發經濟大衰退的最後階段才開始減稅，而且沒有跡象表明政府有能力應對經濟衰退如果我們退出北美自貿協定，那棺材上還有另一顆釘子。特朗普很多東西都不懂，但毫無疑問，美國是一個以服務業為基礎的經濟體，而這裡的生活水平太高了，無法與國外的二線國家競爭。但至少我們有這樣一個人，他認為生活中的一切都是零和遊戲，儘管所有的證據與他的觀點都是相反的。[–]TheFlyingBoatAgreed on all counts. Trump is going to hurt us, but if we elect the right congress and President we"ll be fine.完全贊同。特朗普將給我們造成傷害，但如果我們選對了國會和總統，一切又都會好起來的。[–]ScarlettailFloridaTrump hasn"t helped but I feel this was inevitable regardless of who was in power. China simply has too much economic hegemony right now, and the US is in no position to compete with it because our economy is simply not as booming. China has been luring Latin America and Africa for many years now, and they"ve become too powerful for us too much about their aggression in the East China Sea.To me, I don"t think this is so much a result of America getting weaker (which it has a little bit) but more so that China has grown much stronger and beyond our capacity to compete it. We surrendered any ability to compete long ago when we let them essentially turn the US into a market to sell their goods.特朗普並沒有雪上加霜，但我覺得無論誰當權，這都是不可避免的。中國現在的經濟霸權太大了，而美國沒有能力與之競爭，因為我們的經濟根本沒有繁榮。多年來，中國一直在吸引拉丁美洲和非洲，而且就中國在東海區域的擴張來說，他們在實力對比上已經遠遠強過我們。在我看來，我不認為這主要是因為美國變得越來越弱（也有一點關係），而更多在於中國已經變得更加強大，與它開展競爭超出了我們的能力。很久以前，在我們讓他們把美國變成了一個銷售他們商品的市場的時候起，我們就放棄了競爭的能力。[–]pornstar-martiniDisagree, respectfully. It"s about adaptation. The US can never compete for Labour. But it could for science. Like making clean energy advances then selling them off. But the current administration is fixed on the past. China also luring Asia (Cambodia or Sri Lanka as examples I"ve seen). They have the brawn, but the US has the brain. If it chose to. I"m a Brit and we have the same issue. Let"s sell ideas not t shirts.我不贊同，但沒有不尊重你的意思。只是關於適應能力的問題。美國永遠無法在勞動力方面展開競爭。但它可以在科學方面展開競爭。就像（研發）清潔能源的技術進步，然後再把它們賣掉。但是當前政府固執於以往（的發展模式）。中國也在吸引亞洲（如我所見過的柬埔寨或斯里蘭卡）。他們有強壯的肌肉，但是美國有大腦——如果美國選擇大腦的話。我是英國人，我們也有同樣的問題。讓我們來賣思維成果，而不是t恤。[–]ScarlettailFloridaChina simply has the capability to adapt faster than us because of their authoritarian political system and massive resource potential. We could try to sell science but China"s been doing that for a while already, too. Since the recession, we"ve essentially become complacent and essentially given up any initiative we once had. China wisely found ways to both expand its influence in the world and be one step ahead of major innovations while the US was in economic withdrawal.中國有比我們更強的適應能力，就是由於中國的集權政治體制和巨大的資源潛力。我們可以嘗試出售科學（成果），但中國也已經這樣幹了一段時間了。自經濟衰退以來，我們基本上已經變得自滿，基本上放棄了我們曾經擁有的任何主動性。中國明智地找到了擴大其在世界上的影響力的方法，並在美國經濟退出的同時，成為了重大創新領域的領先者。[–]pornstar-martini Agree. You are well informed. I hope the US seizes back the initiative.贊同。你見多識廣。我希望美國找回主動性。[–]buildabeastNot necessarily a bad thing. China』s stated goal is to economic dominance. That will probably be better for the world than America』s 「world police」 m.o. The Chinese aren』t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.Especially if you don』t live in America you should welcome waning American influence. Sucks for you guys though.這並不一定是壞事。中國的明確目標是以經濟建設為中心。這對世界來說可能比美國的「世界警察」目標更好。中國人對向其他國家推廣他們的體制不感興趣。他們只是想賺錢。特別是如果你不生活在美國，你應該歡迎美國影響力的逐漸衰弱。儘管這對你們這些（美國）傢伙們來說很糟糕。[–]eth_rogenThe Chinese aren』t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.Very, very wrong. I suggest that you look at how they project their soft power overseas. They actively stifle speech critical of the CCP, even if it means kidnapping dissidents abroad and forcibly repatriating them to China for forced confessions. They disrupt and harass activists for such issues as Falun Gong across the world. They"re also more than happy to export their system of government to regimes in southeast Asia. Economics is a tool for them to stifle human rights across the world, doing things like exporting harsh riot control hardware to Maduro in Venezuela, using loans as leverage to extradite Taiwanese citizens to the mainland from Kenya, and punishing Korea for hosting US military hardware. The list in this regard is very, very long.You talk about the US being the world police, but this is a basic result of an EU completely lacking in hard power. The US is functionally in the position of being the "right arm" of the west, and often finds itself doing the dirty work of an EU that isn"t sufficiently advanced in terms of military integration.「中國人對向其他國家推廣他們的體制不感興趣。他們只是想賺錢」大錯特錯。我建議你看看他們是如何在海外投射他們的軟實力的。他們積極地壓制批評TG的言論，即使這意味著要在國外綁架持不同政見者，並強行將他們遣返中國進行bi供。他們因為諸如輪子一類的問題而在世界各地破壞和騷擾活動分子。他們也非常樂意將他們的政府體制輸出到東南亞國家。經濟是他們在世界範圍內壓制人權的工具，他們做一些類諸如向委內瑞拉的馬杜羅出口嚴酷的防暴裝備，利用貸款作為手段，將「台灣公民」（譯註：原文用Taiwanese citizens）從肯亞引渡到中國大陸，並因為部署美國軍事裝備而懲罰韓國。這種事情說也說不完。你說美國是世界警察，但這也是因為歐盟完全缺乏硬實力才導致的一種基本結果。從功能上講，美國是西方的「右臂」，而且經常發現自己在做那些由於歐盟軍事一體化方面還不夠先進，歐萌無法有效勝任的工作。[–]MrPoopMonsterNo. As an American this is good for me. It sucks for us that we waste Trillions of dollars maintaining our global status(through force) , when we could be spending that money on Americans, or protecting more immediate foreign interests, like Mexico.Really, we should completely pull out of the Middle East. Like, remove everything we can move, and sell the rest to the highest bidder. And then we should do the same with our European military assets. Take everything we can back, and sell the rest. Let China, Russia, or the EU handle everything in those regions.If we took the 6 trillion dollars we spent on the War on Terror, we could have made college free for everyone in America, given stimulus packages to cities in dire need (like Detroit or Baltimore), build renewable energy infrastructure, and probably could have destroyed the cartels and helped Mexico back into the first world.不。作為一個美國人，（美國退出，讓中國當世界警察）對我有好處。我們浪費了數萬億美元來維持我們的全球地位（通過武力），我們本可以把這些錢用在美國人身上，或者保護更直接的國外利益，比如墨西哥，這對我們來說很糟糕。真的，我們應該完全撤出中東。就像，把我們能帶走的東西都帶走，然後把剩下的賣給出價最高的人。然後我們也應該對我們的歐洲軍事資產做同樣的事情。把我們能收回的所有東西都拿回來，然後賣掉剩下的。讓中國、俄羅斯或歐盟處理這些地區的一切事務。如果我們沒有把6萬億美元花在反恐戰爭上，我們就可以讓所有美國人免費上大學，給迫切需要的城市（像底特律或巴爾的摩）提供刺激方案，建立可再生能源基礎設施，而且說不定已經摧毀了販毒集團，並幫助墨西哥重新回到第一世界了。[–]reddit_mind_control the chinese system today is closer to nazi Germany than any other country. Yea we should totally welcome it.1、highly nationalist2、one party authoritarian3、socialist party control over key industries4、based solely around the chinese ethnicity5、control over media, culture, to promote fatherhood, baby making, and chinese culture. All subversive influences like hip hop banned.6、belief in social Darwinism, racial IQ differences, and other taboo ideas in the west. Nobody here really knows just how conservative/racist countries in Asia are. I live there and its hilarious. If only you knew.The chinese look out for the chinese. They could give a rats ass about the rest of the world. Is that who you want to be the global leader?今天的中國體制比其他任何國家都更接近小鬍子德國。是的，我們應該完全歡迎它。1、高度的民族主義2、一黨毒菜3、社會主義政黨對關鍵產業的控制4、完全基於中國種族5、控制媒體，文化，促進父權，製造嬰兒和中國文化。所有破壞性的影響都被禁止了，比如嘻哈文化。6、對社會達爾文主義、種族智商差異以及其他在西方被禁止的觀念的信仰。這裡沒有人真正知道亞洲國家究竟有多麼保守/種族主義。我住在那裡，它很滑稽。如果只有你知道。中國人相互提防。他們可能會把世界其他地方搞得一團糟。你想讓誰成為全球領導者？[–]buildabeastYeah that』s a totally balanced and not at all biased view of the situation!1、it』s less nationalist than the US. Their military isn』t worshiped like heros like they are in America, and people never say stuff like 「I』m proud to be Chinese」 or 「China is the greatest country in the world」2、It』s also one of the most efficient systems in the world, for example in the city I live in they are tripling the size of the subway system and only taking 1 year to do so. That would be impossible in a western democracy.3、Not a problem. Actually benefits the majority of people by keeping costs low.4、That』s just not true, it』s not the CPCs fault that the vast majority of the country is Han, it』s just the reality.5、They banned hip hop on state run television. It』s influences are still all over the place. Western media blew that 「ban」 totally out of proportion. Western TV is hugely popular here. The only government control is on the internet and are easily bypassed with little fear of getting in trouble.6、I live in China. I doubt you do because you seem to not understand what it』s actually like living here.不是的，中國的體制是完全平衡的，和對這種情況的所有偏見根本不沾邊！1、它不像美國那麼民族主義。他們的軍隊不像在美國那樣受到英雄般的崇拜，而且人們從不（到處）說「我很自豪能成為中國人」或者「中國是世界上最偉大的國家」之類的話。2、它也是世界上最高效的體制之一，例如在我居住的城市，他們僅花了1年的時間就將地鐵系統的面積擴大了兩倍。這在西方民主國家是不可能坐到的。3、這不是問題。實際上，（國有產業）通過保持低成本，反而使大多數人受益。4、這不是真實的狀況，這不是TG的錯，因為這個國家的絕大多數都是漢族人，這就是現實。5、他們禁止在國家電視台播放嘻哈音樂。它的影響仍然無處存在。西方媒體遠遠誇大了這一「禁令」。西方電視節目在這裡非常受歡迎。政府唯一的控制是在互聯網上，造成的影響微乎其微，幾乎不用擔心會有麻煩。6、我生活在中國。我懷疑你這麼想，是因為你似乎不明白生活在這裡是究竟感受如何。[–]FewYogurtChinese people definitely have a "China is the greatest country/longest living civilization and we have to rise to make it great" cultural thinking, it"s also ingrained in school. I spent a lot of time in India, Malaysia and China, the post you replied to is hyperbolic but not really off the mark. Your response has many outright denials of obvious things.中國人肯定有一種「中國是世界上最偉大的國家/最長壽的文明，我們必須崛起使它偉大」的文化思想，它在學校也根深蒂固。我在印度、馬來西亞和中國待了很長時間，你的回復誇張，但並不是很離譜。你的回復中對很多明顯的事物都給予了否認。[–]buildabeast I』ve lived here for awhile and the closest I』ve ever heard is 「we have the longest continuous written history」. It』s much more common to hear people saying good things about the west than saying China is the best. There』s a different between being proud of your culture and being jingoistic. People hold Chinese people to an impossible standard.我在這裡住了一段時間，我所聽到的和你的帖子最接近的說法是「我們擁有最長的連續的成文史」。聽到人們說西方怎麼好的頻率比聽到說中國是最好的要高得多。對自己的文化感到自豪和沙文主義是有區別的。人們把中國人置於一個不現實的標準之上。[–]reddit_mind_controlI live thereand yes all of those things are true. Socialism with chinese characteristics is national socialism.probably why they are so successful.1、lmao sure. Yes the red army is worshipped as heroes. All kids study it as well as all of their historical figures. They memorize the stuff. You have to have blinders on not to see how nationalist the country is. Every kid does military training when they are in middle school.2、Yea, Nazi Germany was also one of the most efficient systems in the world, particularly when rebuilding after turmoil.3、see above.4、America is majority white, and so is Europe. Not their fault either. Although that doesnt stop leftists from turning that into a negative and something to be remedied. Seems like whites are more beloved in China than in their home nations. Where are the drives for China to be more diverse? Nobody cares because leftists are focused on destroying white nations. Chinese would laugh in your face if you tried that shit here.5、The biggest thing I noticed when I first moved here was the emphasis in all media towards fatherhood and families. In the west those things are demonized and mocked. Here they are promoted. Another thing the Nazis were well known for. Not saying its a bad thing though. Just highlights the weakness of a free press. Its free to degrade a society with poisonous morals.6、I understand what its like to live there. Been doing so for 5 years. I"m not judging them, because in all honestly a system like theirs is the only way to keep the country together. It may in the end prove more effective than western democracies. I"m merely pointing out the reality and the value differences to our left wing friends here. All of the criticisms of America as being racist, too right wing, etc. lmao. If only they knew.我住在那裡是的，所有這些都是真的。中國特色社會主義就是國jia社會主義。這可能就是他們如此成功的原因。1、哈哈，我確定。是的，紅軍被崇拜為英雄。所有的孩子都學習他們，就像其他的歷史人物一樣。他們銘記這些人。你除非戴個眼罩，才會看不到這個國家有多麼的民族主義。所有孩子在上中學的時候都要接受軍訓。2、是的，小鬍子德國也是世界上最高效的體制之一，特別是在混亂之後重建的時候。3、見第2點。4、美國主體是白人，歐洲也是如此。不是他們的錯。儘管這並不能阻止左派人士將其轉化為某種負面的現象，並要求加以糾正。白人似乎在中國比在他們自己國家還受歡迎。中國更加多樣化的動力在哪裡？沒有人在意，因為左派人士一心要摧毀白人國家。如果你試著在中國幹這種事，中國人會狠狠嘲笑你。5、當我第一次搬到這裡時，我注意到的最重要的事情是所有媒體對父權和家庭的強調。在西方，這些東西被妖魔化和嘲笑。在這裡他們卻推廣——這也是小鬍子主義的另一個眾所周知的特徵。不過，這並不是說這是件壞事。只是凸顯了自由媒體的缺乏。中國能夠隨心所欲地用「道德敗壞」來貶低某個社會團體。6、我知道住在那裡是什麼感覺。我已經住了5年了。我不是在評判他們，因為老實說，像他們這樣的體制是保持國家團結的唯一途徑。最終，它可能比西方民主國家更高效。我只是指出了現實情況和我們這裡的左翼朋友們的價值差異。所有對美國的批評都是種族主義，太右翼了，等等。呵呵，如果他們知道這些就好了。[–]FabulousHoboI』m an American. And there is nothing about our administration or government in general that makes me want us calling the shots on a global scale.我是一個美國人。總的來說，我們的政府和政府並沒有讓我想要我們在全球範圍內發號施令。[–]naanandcurry123 China is a way more responsible superpower for two reasons: it does not really believe in getting in endless constant wars and military operations like the US does and secondly it provides aid and economic development to poorer nations without lecturing them about their political systems. China also has way more competent and intelligent leaders, a Trump style pol in China is not possible. China also has a culture that values education and hard work and family, something the US does not中國是一個更負責任的超級大國，原因有二：它並不像美國那樣熱衷於發動無休止的戰爭和軍事行動；其次，它向較貧窮的國家提供援助，幫它們經濟發展，卻不對他們的政治體制進行說教。中國還有能力更強、更明智的領導人，在中國，是不可能出現特朗普式的政治人物的。中國還有一種重視教育、努力工作和家庭的文化，這是美國所不具備的[–]The_MagicCaliforniaChina also doesn"t have any democratic institutions and no concept of free speech. They also don"t have a fair judiciary so the government is free to execute protestors as long as international reporters can"t prove it.Definitely a great example for the rest of the world.中國也沒有任何民主制度，也沒有言論自由的概念。他們也沒有公正的司法系統，所以只要國際報道無法證明，政府就可以自由地處jue抗議者。對於世界其他國家來說，絕對是個好榜樣。[–]naanandcurry123And the US has good democratic institutions? Is that why a moron like Trump can become PResident when he doesn"t even win the popular vote, or you have gerrymandering permitting the GOP to control Congress even when they don"t win the most votes?Whenever americans discuss China all teh can whine about is free speech and democracy. maybe look at the US and see its not even democratic before whining about China.Oh and how is the US doing with executions and imprisoning its population? Or torturing people, or holding them in Gitmo with no charges for almost 20 years now?那麼美國就有很好的民主制度了？這就是為什麼像特朗普這樣的白痴在他甚至都沒有贏得多數選票的情況下就能成為總統，或者你們有不公正的選取劃分，允許共和黨在未贏得多數選票的情況下就控制了國會？每當美國人討論中國的時候，所有他們能抱怨的都是言論自由和民主。也許看看美國，在抱怨中國之前，（會發現）甚至它自己都不民主。哦，再看看美國是如何執行死刑和監禁自己的國民的？要麼虐待他們，要麼在沒有罪名的情況下把他們關在關塔那摩監獄近20年？[–]The_MagicCalifornia Nice whataboutism. I never said the U.S is perfect but if nothing else, Trump shows that even when the government hates a candidate they don"t intervene if he wins under their rules.And ya, the U.S executes people but China is on a whole different level. So no, the crimes of the U.S are not comparable to China.漂亮的whatabout主義（譯註：互相比爛），我從來沒有說過美國是完美的，但最起碼，特朗普能顯示出即使政府討厭這個參選人，但如果他按照競選規則贏得了大選，政府也不會出手干預。而且，對，美國也有死刑，但和中國完全不在同一個層面上。所以美國的罪犯和中國的沒有可比性。[–]naanandcurry123Have you even been to China? Americans have such a black and white view of China and the rest of the world. Its hilarious they whine about democracy, executions, jailing ppl, Tibet. Meanwhile the US does the same or worse shit all over the world. At least China minds its own business and doesnt kill hundreds of thousands in bullshit wars thousands of miles away你去過中國嗎？美國人對中國和世界其他國家的看法是如此的非黑即白。他們對民主、死刑、囚犯、西藏的抱怨很可笑。與此同時，美國卻在世界各地做著同樣或更糟糕的事情。至少中國是在想著自己的事情，也不會跑在千里之外的地方屠殺成千上萬的人。[–]SkyrickWhen the world is looking at what our freedoms brought us, it is easier to sell people the idea that those freedoms are unimportant. Trump was able to sell racist ideals through free speech. FOX news has sold that global warming isn』t an issue through free speech. The cost of free speech has been high in the US, and I don』t know if others looking at our example would necessarily want to follow us knowing that.當全世界都在關注我們的自由能帶給我們什麼的時候，向人們兜售那些自由不重要的觀點就更加容易。特朗普能夠通過言論自由兜售種族主義理想。福克斯新聞已經說過，全球變暖不是一個通過言論自由的問題。在美國，言論自由的代價是很高的，我不知道其他把我們作為樣例來關注的國家，是不是想效仿我們學到那個教訓。[–]The_MagicCaliforniaHaving a joke like Trump make decisions is preferable to being thrown in prison for criticizing the government.講個笑話：讓特朗普做決策比把批評政府的人關進監獄更好。[–]M00n[S]It would hurt our economy and China would get to control the narrative. China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.這將損害我們的經濟，而中國將會掌控話語權。中國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的。[–]zorblatt9China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.Outside of America:America is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.「中國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的」美國之外的看法：「美國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的」[–]PizzusChristHaving the global reserve currency is a nice perk. The dominance of the USD is a really good reason to bear that burden.擁有全球儲備貨幣是一項不錯的福利。美元的主導地位是承擔這一重擔的一個很好的理由。[–]Spanktank35 Am Aussie, I would rather make a deal with China by far. They would respect the deal and respect us. Its a shame considering Obama had so much respect from me.我是澳大利亞人，眼下我寧願與中國達成協議。他們會尊重協議並尊重我們。考慮到奧巴馬對我如此尊敬，這真是太丟臉了。[–]Buttcrack_SplitterAnd what does your "respect" do? does australia make a deal based on your "respect"?, some random internet guy "respect" is worth much less than a fart that come out during your morning shit你說的「尊重」是什麼？澳大利亞是否根據你的「尊重」來達成協議？某些路人網友「尊重」的價值比你早上大號時排除的甲烷氣體還要低得多。[–]Spanktank35 Respect means countries turn to you for leadership and are more cooperative. Right now a lot of big deals are being made without you since it isn"t worth the hassle or risk.Not to mention, Americans like you pissing off citizens like me makes it unpopular to work with you. So yes, Australia does make deals based on its population"s respect. That really shouldn"t be a question?Trump is going back on deals and spilling intelligence heck your country isn"t even trustworthy anymore.尊重意味著各國向你尋求領導，並更加合作。現在，很多大宗交易都是在沒有你們的情況下進行的，因為它不值得承擔麻煩或風險。更不用說，像你這樣的美國人，對像我這樣的公民羞辱嘲諷，這種做法讓你們不受歡迎。所以，是的，澳大利亞確實是根據人民的尊重來達成交易的。這真的不應該成為一個問題嗎？特朗普正在反悔交易，泄露情報，見鬼，你們的國家已經不再值得信任了。[–]ftjlsterGot to say, I"ve been wondering how much how world leaders feel about Trump might be affecting their willingness to start or continue trade negotiations with the US.我想說的是，我一直在想，世界各國領導人對特朗普的看法，在多大程度上可能會影響他們開啟或繼續與美國進行貿易談判的意願。[–]NyetFlexAndShillWe surrendered that back in 1993 when Clinton signed the China Trade Agreement. Between that and NAFTA, we shipped manufacturing and farming overseas and across borders from rural America and effectively killed that demographic and turned it into what it is today to maximize corporate profits.我們在1993年柯林頓簽署了與中國的貿易協定時就已經把世界推向了中國。在此之後和北美自貿協定達成之前，我們將製造業和農業從美國農村地區轉移到了海外，並有效地消滅了這一人群，並將其轉化為今天的企業利潤最大化[–]555-1234 Everyone hated the TPP, and it had its flaws, but it was better than the alternative- handing the next generation of economic power to China. Which Trump was eager to do.每個人都討厭TPP，它也有自己的缺點，但它比另一種選擇要好——把下一代的經濟實力交給中國。特朗普就迫不及待地要這樣做。[–]awful_neutralTennessee When did American hegemony suddenly become cool again? Is it because it"s the perceived opposite of Trump"s direction?Don"t get me wrong, I don"t think that China becoming a more dominant force on the global stage is a good thing, but I don"t think America"s "world police" is a force of good either. I thought that was just a given after endless disasters in both the Cold War era and the current conflicts in the Middle East.I don"t think it"s unfair for Americans to be growing tired of the burden that comes with the title, or for people across the world to be tired of us shoving our finger in the pot. Obviously Trump isn"t the answer, and hasn"t handled this problem well at al.美國霸權什麼時候突然變酷了？是因為這是與特朗普的方向相反的嗎？不要誤解我的意思，我不認為中國在全球舞台上成為一股主導力量是件好事，但我也不認為美國的「世界警察」身份就是一股正義的力量。我認為，這只是冷戰時期和中東當前衝突不斷的災難之後的一種既定的安排。我認為美國人越來越厭倦這個標題中夾雜的負擔是很公平的，或者說世界各地的人們都厭倦了我們把手伸到他們的鍋里。很明顯特朗普不是答案，也根本沒有處理好這個問題。[–]OddScienceBecause the dumbasses don"t realize that America"s wealth is propped up based on that. You don"t give that up without giving up a lot of other shit and the morons haven"t figured that out yet. There"s also no take backsies and there"s very long term consequences to what will happen. If another nation takes that mantle, you can"t just undo it or change your mind later.I wish someone would smack each and every one of the idiots with a history book. Very hard. America"s rise to power happened because at that time all the other large nations destroyed themselves in war. America profited off of that war, took that money and ran away with it. They established strong footholds that enabled them to get great global trade deals.Things like rebuilding Japan wasn"t so much for them as it was for us. All that bullshit in the Middle East was also for us. Did you forget? We started shit there so we could get money. UN? Built for us. NATO? built for us. They were mechanisms established so US could maintain power on an international stage.Seeing people trying to destroy those things because they"re too stupid.因為這些愚蠢的人沒有意識到美國的財富是建立在美國的地位之上的。你要是放棄它，你還得放棄很多其他的東西，而那些笨蛋還沒有意識到這一點。也沒有什麼倒退，而且未來結果如何還要很長時間才能看到。如果另一個國家接過了這個重任，你就不能在以後按ctrl+z或者反悔了。我希望有人會拿一本歷史書來反駁每一個白痴。狠狠地反駁。美國的崛起之所以會發生，是因為當時所有其他大國都在戰爭中毀滅了自己。美國從那場戰爭中獲利，拿走了那筆錢，然後就帶著它走人。他們建立了牢固的立足點，使他們能夠掌控巨大的全球貿易協議。像重建日本這樣的事情對他們來說並不像對我們來說那麼重要。中東的那些JB事都是為我們的利益服務的。你忘記了嗎？我們開始在那裡攪shi，然後我們能從中獲利。聯合國？是為我們而設的。北約？是為我們而設的。它們是建立起來的機制，這樣美國就能在國際舞台上維持權力。看到人們在試圖摧毀這些東西，原因是他們太愚蠢了。[–]PizzusChrist It"ll take a decade to repair the damage to the State Department. It"ll take another to re-enforce the Monroe doctrine. US power has persistently grown since WWII and for the first time since FDR we are a weaker nation internationally.Trump"s legacy will be a skid mark on the Oval Office. Absolute fucking disgrace of a President.修復對國務院的損害需要十年的時間。而要重新執行門羅主義還要再花10年時間。自二戰以來，美國的實力一直在增長，而現在，自羅斯福總統以來，我們第一次成為在國際上較弱的國家。特朗普的政治遺產將成為總統辦公室的一個「滑痕」。總統的絕對恥辱。[–]WinterTeachingMonroe doctrine.This is why China wins. American unilateral hegemony will no longer pass. The US wants to dominate and control, China is looking for partnerships.「門羅主義」這就是中國獲勝的原因。美國的單邊霸權將不復存在。美國想要主導和控制，而中國正在尋找合作夥伴。[–]Tombot3000 China is not looking for partnerships. They"re adopting the guise of partnerships while working towards domination and control. It doesn"t take long to see that any time they alhave the opportunity to, they attempt to control their "partners."中國並不是在尋找合作夥伴。他們以夥伴關係為偽裝，以控制為目的。用不了多久你就能看到，他們就會有機會去控制自己的「合作夥伴」。[–]tat3179As far as I am concerned, all major powers will attempt to dominate and control at some point, including the US. At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.就我個人而言，所有主要大國都將試圖在某一時刻支配和控制，包括美國。至少，我不認為中國無人機很快就會去尋找穆斯林恐怖分子（承擔起反恐的職責）。[–]SnowflakeMod At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.Then you know little to nothing about Chinese history. You should start reading about how they treat their own muslim minority, then reuate how you think they will treat them in countries from which China is extracting resources.「至少，我不認為中國無人機很快就會去尋找穆斯林恐怖分子（承擔起反恐的職責）」那你對中國的歷史一無所知。你應該開始閱讀他們如何對待自己的穆斯林少數民族，然後重新評估你認為他們將如何對待他們正在獲取資源的國家的那些穆斯林。[–]tat3179 Oh, I have been reading a lot about Chinese history. My country was practically existed because of China.Put it this way. China never conquered SEA like the Europeans do. Sure, they demand tribute and that they acknowledge that China is top dog in the world, there never have been Chinese troops invading and imposing Confucianism onto countries.I assure you, living next to that giant we have plenty of historical dealings with them.And about the Uighurs that is my point about China, the Muslims don"t really give a fuck. Just a couple of days the Muslims in my country decided to send back Uighurs that escaped Thailand back to China on their request. They never protested like they way they protest against you about treatment of Muslims.See, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business. China never invaded Iraq, never invade Afghanistan. Simple as that. You may not like what I say, but that is the truth.哦，我讀了很多關於中國歷史的書。，我的國家是因為中國才在事實上經存在的。這麼說吧。中國從來沒有像歐洲人那樣征服海洋。當然，他們要求貢品，他們承認中國是世界上最NB的國家，中國軍隊從來沒有入侵併把儒家思想強加於別的國家。我向你保證，住在那個巨人旁邊會給我們帶來和他們的很多歷史交易。關於維吾爾人，我對中國的看法是，穆斯林並不是真的不在乎。就在幾天前，我國的穆斯林決定把逃到泰國的維吾爾人遣返回中國。他們從不以他們抗議你對待穆斯林的那種方式抗議中國。看吧，到頭來，中國在其境內所做的事情就是他們的家事。中國從來沒有入侵過伊拉克，從來沒有入侵過阿富汗。就這麼簡單。你可能不喜歡我說的話，但那是事實。[–]SnowflakeModSee, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business.Until they start exporting the same treatment overseas. If you are sufficiently naive to believe they will treat foreigners who threaten their economic interests better than their own citizens, I can only shake my head.「看吧，到頭來，中國在其境內所做的事情就是他們的家事」直到他們開始向海外輸出同樣的對待（穆斯林的）方式。如果你足夠天真地相信，他們會對待那些威脅他們經濟利益的外國人比對待他們自己的公民更友善，我只能搖頭。[–]tat3179As far as I am concerned, an Iraqi, Syrian, Yemeni or peoples from MENA countries have nothing to fear from China"s drones. The Yemenis however, have many many reasons to fear US ones.Of course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear. I mean, being Swedish will not protect you, of course. But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place. After all, democractic dissidents not in China are hardly molested.In the end, my point applies, what China does within its borders is still China"s business. You may not like it, but that is the fact. However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.就我個人而言，來自中東和北非地區的伊拉克、敘利亞、葉門或人民對中國的無人機沒有什麼可擔心的。然而，葉門人有很多理由害怕美國。當然，如果你是中國國內的持不同政見者，那麼你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保護不了你。但話又說回來，如果你知道這些危險，你一開始就應該離開那裡。畢竟，中國之外的民主異見人士幾乎沒有被騷擾。最後，我的觀點是，中國在其境內所做的事情仍然是中國的事情。你可能不喜歡它，但這是事實。然而，如果你能證明中國以某種理由軍事入侵了某個非洲國家，或許我們可以嚴肅地討論這個問題。[–]SnowflakeModOf course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear... But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place.Or China could become civilized.However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.Lol, get ready!「當然，如果你是中國國內的持不同政見者，那麼你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保護不了你。但話又說回來，如果你知道這些危險，你一開始就應該離開那裡」中國也可以變成文明國家（為什麼必須是離開中國）。「然而，如果你能證明中國以某種理由軍事入侵了某個非洲國家，或許我們可以嚴肅地討論這個問題」呵呵，中國已經做準備了！[–]tat3179Or China could become civilized.See, this kind of attitude just make people pissed off with the US and the West. Especially when it is spoken off Trump"s mouth. "We westerners are superior and with civilization. You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilized barbarians. China, let go of Tibet". And people like you wonder why in Reddit there are so many Chinese nationals practically give you the finger whenever you moan about China.As for your article, I call that smart use of power. Instead of drones and boots on the ground, they could topple governments by economics and influence alone. Something the US could do long time ago. Now, you rely more on dumb brute force.「中國也可以變成文明國家」看，這種態度只會讓人們對美國和西方感到憤怒。尤其是當它從特朗普的嘴裡說出來的時候。「我們西方人更優秀，更文明。你們這些低等的民族必須聽我們的，否則你們就是不文明的野蠻人。中國，放開西藏」。像你這樣的人想知道為什麼在紅迪網上有這麼多中國公民，在你抱怨中國的時候，他們會向你豎中指。至於你的文章，我稱之為對力量的巧妙應用。他們可以用經濟和影響力來推翻政府，而不是用無人機和地面部隊。美國很久以前就能做的事情。現在，你更依賴於愚蠢的蠻力。[–]SnowflakeMod Especially when it is spoken off Trump"s mouth.Yeah, we hate Trump because he acts too much like a Chinese official, criticizing free press, looking at global trade competitively, etc.You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilised barbarians.You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.「尤其是當它從特朗普的嘴裡說出來的時候」是的，我們討厭特朗普，因為他表現得太像一個中國官員，批評自由媒體，用競爭性的眼光看待全球貿易，等等。「你們這些低等的民族必須聽我們的，否則你們就是不文明的野蠻人」如果你們折磨那些批評你們虛弱政府的人，你們就是不文明的。我們希望，最終，你將會學到足夠的知識，成為一個19世紀的強國。這些人不應該因為想要過上更好的生活而受到殘酷的懲罰，也不應該有這麼一個對他們的生活只有一絲尊重的政府。這些人是道德英雄，而TG對他們的折磨是不文明的。[–]tat3179You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.Yes. Continue to lecture over them. Continue to belittle them. I am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way. It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".「如果你們折磨那些批評你們虛弱政府的人，你們就是不文明的。我們希望，最終，你將會學到足夠的知識，成為一個19世紀的強國。這些人不應該因為想要過上更好的生活而受到殘酷的懲罰，也不應該有這麼一個對他們的生活只有一絲尊重的政府。這些人是道德英雄，而TG對他們的折磨是不文明的」是的。繼續對他們進行說教。繼續貶低他們。我相信你會以這種方式改變很多人的想法。對你來說可能不想看到這個事實，但你確實意識到，對於絕大多數中國人來說，撇開對政府的一般性抱怨不談，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他們尤其不滿西方國家稱他們和他們的政府「不文明」。[–]SnowflakeModI am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way.I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.「我相信你會以這種方式改變很多人的想法」我並不是在試圖改變人們的想法。我說的是實話。虛弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可恥的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些這麼做的政府，你就活在18世紀。這是底線。「對你來說可能不想看到這個事實，但你確實意識到，對於絕大多數中國人來說，撇開對政府的一般性抱怨不談，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他們尤其不滿西方國家稱他們和他們的政府『不文明』」對酷刑受害者來說，這是痛苦的，但總有一天他們會重獲自由，並且中國將有一個合法的政府。[–]tat3179I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.Dunno about living in the 18th century. But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...「我並不是在試圖改變人們的想法。我說的是實話。虛弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可恥的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些這麼做的政府，你就活在18世紀。這是底線」我不知道生活在18世紀的情況。但在我走訪中國的時候，他們過得肯定是21世紀的生活。「對酷刑受害者來說，這是痛苦的，但總有一天他們會重獲自由，並且中國將有一個合法的政府」這聽起來像你個人的觀點，夥計，而且坦率地講，我懷疑你不是中華人民共和國公民……[–]SnowflakeMod But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it"s still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.「但在我走訪中國的時候，他們過得肯定是21世紀的生活」在19世紀，合法的政府和受過教育的人在折磨持不同政見者的過程中成長起來。如果這種情況還出現（在中國），那你的國家就是不文明、陳舊的，落後於美國的兩百年左右。「這聽起來像你個人的觀點，夥計，而且坦率地講，我懷疑你不是中華人民共和國公民……」我當然不是。如果我是中華人民共和國公民，我就會因為發了這些話而被逮捕和折磨。[–]tat3179Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it"s still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.MY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC. I am just a outside observer telling you what I see. China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised".But you know what, keep beating that wall with your head. It changes nothing and I assure you, many people don"t see what you see, because the world doesn"t revolve around "western values", really.Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.「在19世紀，合法的政府和受過教育的人在折磨持不同政見者的過程中成長起來。如果這種情況還出現（在中國），這個國家就是不文明、陳舊的，落後於美國的兩百年左右」我的國家？哦，我的……我不是來自中華人民共和國。我只是一個旁觀者，在告訴你我所看到的。中國和你這樣的人有不同的價值觀，但你知道嗎，我沒有聽到像你這樣傲慢的人說別人是「不文明的」。但是你知道嗎，用你的頭繼續撞牆。它什麼也沒改變，我向你保證，很多人看不到你看到的東西，因為這個世界真的並不以「西方價值觀」為中心的。「我當然不是。如果我是中華人民共和國公民，我就會因為發了這些話而被逮捕和折磨」聽起來更像你的一些帖子因為某些插件被刪掉了。僅此而已。中國不是朝鮮，甚至不像朝鮮，他們的人民一直在網上對政府發牢騷。事實就是如此。[–]SnowflakeModMY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC.Your is a common English usage, my bad if I was unclear, but it"s a general statement because China is not the only offending country. China"s ally, North Korea, also tortures dissidents.China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised"... many people don"t see what you see, because the world doesn"t revolve around "western values", really.There is no difference in values that justifies torturing dissidents. Only the difference is between human values and uncivilized, illegitimate government. Torturing dissidents is more fitting of archaic forms of government, like monarchy or empire, happily relegated to the past in civilized countries.More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.Unless you are arrested for internet posts criticizing government corruption.「我的國家？哦，我的……我不是來自中華人民共和國」你的英語水平一般般，如果說錯了是我沒搞清楚，但這是一個籠統的說法，因為中國並不是唯一具有冒犯行為的國家。中國的盟友朝鮮也在折磨持不同政見者。「中國和你這樣的人有不同的價值觀，但你知道嗎，我沒有聽到像你這樣傲慢的人說別人是『不文明的』。但是你知道嗎，用你的頭繼續撞牆。它什麼也沒改變，我向你保證，很多人看不到你看到的東西，因為這個世界真的並不以「西方價值觀」為中心的」就折磨異見者而言不存在價值觀上的區別。唯一的區別在於人類的價值觀和不文明的、不合法的政府之間。折磨持不同政見者更符合古老的政府形式，如君主制或帝國，而在文明國家中這已愉快地成為過去。「聽起來更像你的一些帖子因為某些插件被刪掉了。僅此而已。中國不是朝鮮，甚至不像朝鮮，他們的人民一直在網上對政府發牢騷。事實就是如此」除非你因為網路帖子批評政府腐敗而被捕（譯註：新聞鏈接）[–]Tombot3000 That"s whataboutism mixed with a lack of understanding that there are different degrees of attempting to control others. France and Russia both attempt to influence Europe, but the methods and motives for each are different.Your cherry picked example is just showing one side. I could easily reply with "At the very least, I"m not expecting the USA to build military installations in other countries waters without their permission."這是混雜了對「試圖控制他人的程度是不同的」 不理解的「whatabout主義」。法國和俄羅斯都試圖影響歐洲，但它們的方法和動機各不相同。你的主觀選擇性的例子只是展示了一個方面。我可以很容易地回答：「起碼，我不指望美國在未經當事國允許的情況下在其他國家的水域建造軍事設施。」[–]tat3179 Interesting that you deem historical facts as "whataboutism". Also, the actions of France and Russia doesn"t just "attempt to influence Europe", unless you deem Syria, the stans, Mali and Francophone African states "Europe".The US did build military installations in other countries without their permission. I didn"t recall the Taliban or god knows who else in charge or Saddam gave the US military permission to build bases there.有趣的是，你把歷史事實看成「whatabout主義」。此外，法國和俄羅斯的行為不僅僅是「試圖影響歐洲」，除非你認為敘利亞、施坦斯、馬里和法語非洲國家是「歐洲」。美國的確在未經允許的情況下在其他國家建造了軍事設施。我不記得塔利班還是上帝知道還有誰負責任，還是薩達姆，允許美國軍方在那裡建立了基地。[–]Tombot3000 If you want to compare with other countries, look at their circumstances, norms of the time, and so on.My example wasn"t to say influencing Europe is the only thing those countries do -- it"s pointing out that two countries can have the same goal but different methods and motives.The examples you"re giving are wartime temporary forward bases that were removed when requested by the re-formed government. That"s significantly different from simply taking over part of a country you"re not at war with and staying there despite their protests.如果你想和其他國家比較，就要看看他們的實際情況，時間的標準，等等。我的例子並不是說影響歐洲是這些國家唯一做的事情——而在於指出，兩個國家可以有相同的目標，但方法和動機不同。你所舉的例子是戰時臨時的前線基地，它們後來在重新組建的政府的要求下被移除了。這與簡單地接管一個你沒有與之開戰的國家，並在他們的抗議下呆在那裡的情況有很大的不同。[–]KiyasuMaybe not over the middle east, but western China over their Muslim populations? Wouldn"t doubt it in another few years.It"s not like China hasn"t been attacking it"s own ethnic Muslim minorities over the last few years, there"s always another crackdown, always more rules. If they"re willing to run over Han protesters in the capital of China with tanks why on Earth would they not use drones if they felt it was needed? I wouldn"t bet money on China not using drones on people in the near future.Don"t get me wrong, it"s behaviors the US already shows, I"m just not buying the Chinese PR just because they"ve got a better message, the same guys that will kill their own civilians rather than give up any power are still there, still ruling.也許不是在中東（反穆斯林），而是中國西部的穆斯林人口呢？我不會懷疑在未來的幾年裡這種情況就會發生。這並不像中國在過去幾年裡沒有攻擊自己的穆斯林少數民族，一直都存在另一種鎮壓，總是有更多的（針對性）規則。如果他們願意在中國的首都用水櫃壓漢族抗議者，那憑什麼他們就不會在覺得有必要的情況下使用無人機呢？我不會賭中國不會在不久的將來對人們使用無人機。不要誤解我的意思，這是美國已經展示的行為，我只是不買中國對外宣傳的帳，只是因為他們已經傳遞了更明確的信息，那些同樣的寧願消滅自己公民也不願放棄任何權力的人，仍然在那裡，仍然統治著。[–]tat3179In the end, what they do in their borders is their business. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it is their country. You may not like Tibet is now an integral part of China, so what? That is the defacto fact of life. What matters is how China treats other sovereign states through its history. The fact now that they have the ability to supplant you in countries where you left speaks volumes.Harping on Tibet or West China changes nothing. Fact is, no one really gives a fuck what China does within its borders. Take that bookkeeper kidnapping case for instance, will the EU going to brake off ties with China just because Sweden is pissed off? Nope.說到底，他們在自己邊境線以內怎麼做那是他們的家事。你可能不喜歡它，我可能不喜歡它，但它是他們的國家（我們管不著）。你可能不喜歡西藏現在是中國不可分割的一部分，那又怎樣？這就是現實生活中的事實。重要的是中國如何對待其他主權國家的歷史。他們有能力在你們離開的國家取代你們這一事實已經重分說明了問題。對西藏或中國西部嘰嘰喳喳改變不了任何事實。事實是，沒有人真正在乎中國在其境內所做的事情。以逮捕書店老闆事件為例，歐盟是否會因為瑞典的憤怒而切斷與中國的聯繫？不會。[–]Tombot3000我為什麼覺得我應該給你五毛。。。What they do within their borders is an indication of what they would like to do internationally, and is important to many people.Regardless, I agree with you that the best indicator is how they treat others. Let"s see, off the top of my head the CCP has...1、Warred with India and Vietnam over territorial disputes.2、aggressively encroached on the Philippines, Japan, and South Korea and their maritime resources.3、Attempted to economically bully SK over THAAD.4、Repeatedly and extensively attempted to undermine Taiwan』s independence.5、Undertaken extensive cyber espionage campaign against Western powers.6、Ignored the sovereignty of foreign nations over ethnically Chinese individuals.7、consistently stolen foreign IP and military tech.8、manipulated their currency subsidized local companies in violation of World Bank, IMF, and trade agreement statutes.As far as "no one cares" there"s a reason why China has no allies, only one military partner (Pakistan, not exactly an A-lister) and foreign investment has been shifting to competitors year after year despite significant skill and infrastructure advantages held by the Chinese. No one on the international stage trusts China.我為什麼覺得我應該給你五毛。。。（譯註：我cao，原文為中文，辯了這麼久，才發現居然是個輪子在和一個對中國很了解的老外在論戰）他們在境內所做的事情正表明了他們想在國際上做些什麼，這對許多人來說很重要。無論如何，我同意你的觀點，最好的指標是他們如何對待他人。讓我們看看，在我的腦海中，TG的表現如何……1、與印度和越南在領土爭端問題上爭執。2、積極侵佔菲律賓、日本、韓國及其海洋資源。3、企圖在經濟上威脅韓國。4、不斷地、廣泛地試圖破壞台灣的du立。5、對西方大國進行了廣泛的網路間諜活動。6、忽視外籍華人的外國主權。7、不斷地竊取外國知識產權和軍事技術。8、違反世界銀行、國際貨幣基金組織和貿易協定法，操縱本國貨幣補貼的當地企業。就「沒人關心」而言，中國沒有盟友是有原因的，只有一個軍事夥伴（巴基斯坦，還不是一個一線國家），而且外國投資每年都在向中國的競爭對手轉移，儘管中國擁有大量的技術和基礎設施優勢。在國際舞台上，沒有人信任中國。[–]tat3179Again, like I said, if you are not in direct territorial disputes with them, there are no reason to be scared, at least militarily. My country has territorial dispute with them, and now we are deeply tied with China economically.As for your list, yeah, there is called looking after your interest. I could swap your list with the US too if I am bothered. I am not denying it factually, but as far as I am concerned, this is what powers do in its own interest.As for your argument about allies, we shall see. Xi Jingping may be a strongman, but he is an effective captain so far managing China"s interest. Beats Trumpism anytime though. Also, I am not optimistic that Americans will not vote another Trump like idiot in the future.再一次，就像我說的，如果你和他們沒有直接的領土爭端，至少在軍事上是沒有理由害怕的。我的國家與他們有領土爭端，但現在我們在經濟上與中國緊密相連。至於你的清單，是的，有一種說法叫做維護自身利益。如果我覺得很煩，我也可以拿美國列一串清單來懟你。我並不是在否認這一點，但就我而言，這不過是以實力為自己謀利益而已。至於你關於盟友的爭論，我們將拭目以待。586可能是一個強人，但到目前為止，他也是一位卓有成效的為中國謀利益的領導人。儘管總是與「特朗普主義」相對抗。此外，我並不樂觀地認為，美國人將來還會向白痴一樣再次投票給特朗普。[–]Tombot3000Half of what I listed has nothing to do with territorial disputes but are still good reasons to be wary of China.Having allies isn"t really a "we shall see" thing; it"s been consistent since the Sino-Soviet split.Xi Jinping effectiveness is certainly debatable. That is a "we shall see" issue. As far as him being better than Trump I mostly agree, except for the fact that he"s far more competent and able to hold onto power and change the system -- if you don"t like those changes, better to have a moron.我列出的一半與領土爭端沒有任何關係，但仍有理由對中國保持警惕。有沒有盟友並不是真正的「我們將拭目以待」的事物；自從中蘇分裂以來，中國一直沒有盟友。586的成效當然是有爭議的。這才是一個「我們將拭目以待」的問題。至於他比特朗普要好，我基本上同意，除了他更有能力、更有能力掌握權力並改變體制——但如果你不喜歡這類變化，那還不如有個白痴當總統。[–]tat3179Small countries should be wary big countries as a rule, if they want to survive that is. Funny you think that the US is somehow better than the Chinese in that regard.The Sino-Soviet split is ancient history. The Soviets are no more, and China is far more powerful, richer and influential than the 60s. China is just starting the process of building the very same institutions the US had for decades. Before that, they are just busy minding their business, if you do follow global events. Perhaps it won"t be as effective the US influence, again, time will tell.Trump is a mere sympthon of a bigger problem in the US. The US is very badly fractured that it is no joke. Corporations practically owns the government. Dumb people speaks louder than actual smart people.As for your moron argument - if you have no competitor as intense a China that 4 years moronic rule wouldn"t matter. Put it this way, if you want to contain China, best time to do so was in the 90s. That was over. 2nd best time, the 2000s. Oops. Instead of managing China, the US chooses to mess with Central Asia and Middle East. Obama tried during the his last 4 years, barely could do so until the US elected an actual moron that undid what Obama tried to so.China is not going to sit still for the next 4 years. And I am not sure the US won"t elect another moron in 4 years time or the next for 4 years afterwards.如果想要生存下去，小國應該警惕大國，這是常理。有趣的是，你認為美國在這方面比中國人好。中蘇分裂是古老的歷史。蘇聯已經不復存在，中國比60年代更強大、更富有、更有影響力。中國剛剛開始建立美國已經擁有了幾十年的體系。在此之前，如果你真的關注全球事件，中國只是在忙於自己的事情。或許，中國的影響力不會像美國那樣有效，時間仍然會告訴我們。特朗普只是美國所面臨的一個更大問題的一個案例。美國的分裂非常嚴重，這可不是鬧著玩的。實際上政府被企業所擁有。而愚蠢的人比真正聰明的人話語權更大。至於你的白痴論點——如果你沒有像中國那樣的激烈競爭對手，那麼4年輪迴的白痴規則也就無所謂了。換句話說，如果你想遏制中國，最好的時機是在90年代。而那已經成為過去。第二個最好的時間點，是21世紀頭10年。老天啊。美國沒有處理中國，而是選擇與中亞和中東廝混。奧巴馬在他最後的4年任期里嘗試過，差不多就要看到成效了，直到美國選出了一個真正的白痴，推翻了奧巴馬努力耕耘的一切。在接下來的4年里，中國不會幹坐著發獃。而我不確定美國是否會在4年內或之後的4年里再選一個白痴。
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Automation is not going to be kind to the Chinese economy.「仍然擁有最強大的經濟」「不會持續太久了」我們會看到的。;-)工業自動化對於中國經濟來講可不是個好東西哦。[–]Scatman_JeffAutomation is not going to be kind to the US either. The countries that will fare the best with automation are those with the strongest social safety nets; something the US does not excel at.自動化對美國來說也不是什麼好東西。那些在自動化方面表現最好的國家是那些擁有最強大的社會保障網路的國家；而這卻是美國的短板。[–]SnowflakeModAutomation is not going to be kind to the US either.Of course not, but we"ve been moving away from manufacturing for decades as China has been moving into it.「自動化對美國來說也不是什麼好東西」當然是，但幾十年來我們一直在遠離製造業，因為中國已經進入了這個領域。[–]TheFlyingBoat America isn"t the most robust superpower due to corporate influence on the government, but rather in spite of it. It"s successful due to the incredible ability for it to globally export culture and morph the world into it"s own image through Hollywood, define the global infrastructure of the 21st century through Silicon Valley, control global financial flows and international affairs through NYC and DC. The UN, the World Bank, the IMF, etc. are all powerful tools at our disposal to shape global norms and practices that help enable us to project power and make the world more like us. You need to improve your parodying capabilities more. You aren"t funny and you aren"t caricaturing anyone well. If you did either of them, it"d be better.由於企業對政府的影響，美國並不是最強大的超級大國，但這種影響也成就了今天的美國。它之所以成功，是因為它具有令人難以置信的全球文化輸出能力，並通過好萊塢將世界變成自己的偶像，通過矽谷來定義21世紀的全球基礎設施，通過紐約和華盛頓控制全球金融流動和國際事務。聯合國、世界銀行、國際貨幣基金組織等機構都是我們掌握的強有力的工具，可以塑造全球規範和實踐，幫助我們投射實力，讓世界變得更像我們。你們需要更多地提高你們的模仿能力。你們沒意思，你們也沒有巧妙地諷刺到任何國家。如果你做到了其中任何一點，情況會就更好。[–]pornstar-martiniHonestly, I can"t see a) Trump being in office in 2019 and b) America not having self reflection and coming back harder and meaner with the mean racist underbelly sent back where they came from.老實說，我看不到a）特朗普在2019年還會出現在百宮裡； b）美國沒有進行自我反省，而且還變回了以前那麼刻薄和卑鄙，用種族主義的方式把移民趕了回去。[–][deleted]dropping completely out of tpp cedes an entire hemisphere to chinathe state department is basically non-functional, there are few ambassadors, and the direction of foreign policy in america is based on who has recently flattered the president the mostin addition, we just cut taxes right during the final buildup to a major recession and there"s no indication the government has any ability to deal with that recessionif we pull out of nafta, there"s another nail in the coffin. trump doesn"t understand many things, but certainly that america is a services based economy and standards of living are too great here to really compete with the secondary sectors of nations abroadbut hey at least we have someone that thinks virtually everything in life is a zero sum game, despite all evidence to the contrary完全退出tpp的做法將整個半球割讓給了中國美國國務院基本上是沒有發揮作用，大使很少，而且美國的外交政策方向是由最近拍總統馬屁最多的人決定的此外，我們只是在引發經濟大衰退的最後階段才開始減稅，而且沒有跡象表明政府有能力應對經濟衰退如果我們退出北美自貿協定，那棺材上還有另一顆釘子。特朗普很多東西都不懂，但毫無疑問，美國是一個以服務業為基礎的經濟體，而這裡的生活水平太高了，無法與國外的二線國家競爭。但至少我們有這樣一個人，他認為生活中的一切都是零和遊戲，儘管所有的證據與他的觀點都是相反的。[–]TheFlyingBoatAgreed on all counts. Trump is going to hurt us, but if we elect the right congress and President we"ll be fine.完全贊同。特朗普將給我們造成傷害，但如果我們選對了國會和總統，一切又都會好起來的。[–]ScarlettailFloridaTrump hasn"t helped but I feel this was inevitable regardless of who was in power. China simply has too much economic hegemony right now, and the US is in no position to compete with it because our economy is simply not as booming. China has been luring Latin America and Africa for many years now, and they"ve become too powerful for us too much about their aggression in the East China Sea.To me, I don"t think this is so much a result of America getting weaker (which it has a little bit) but more so that China has grown much stronger and beyond our capacity to compete it. We surrendered any ability to compete long ago when we let them essentially turn the US into a market to sell their goods.特朗普並沒有雪上加霜，但我覺得無論誰當權，這都是不可避免的。中國現在的經濟霸權太大了，而美國沒有能力與之競爭，因為我們的經濟根本沒有繁榮。多年來，中國一直在吸引拉丁美洲和非洲，而且就中國在東海區域的擴張來說，他們在實力對比上已經遠遠強過我們。在我看來，我不認為這主要是因為美國變得越來越弱（也有一點關係），而更多在於中國已經變得更加強大，與它開展競爭超出了我們的能力。很久以前，在我們讓他們把美國變成了一個銷售他們商品的市場的時候起，我們就放棄了競爭的能力。[–]pornstar-martiniDisagree, respectfully. It"s about adaptation. The US can never compete for Labour. But it could for science. Like making clean energy advances then selling them off. But the current administration is fixed on the past. China also luring Asia (Cambodia or Sri Lanka as examples I"ve seen). They have the brawn, but the US has the brain. If it chose to. I"m a Brit and we have the same issue. Let"s sell ideas not t shirts.我不贊同，但沒有不尊重你的意思。只是關於適應能力的問題。美國永遠無法在勞動力方面展開競爭。但它可以在科學方面展開競爭。就像（研發）清潔能源的技術進步，然後再把它們賣掉。但是當前政府固執於以往（的發展模式）。中國也在吸引亞洲（如我所見過的柬埔寨或斯里蘭卡）。他們有強壯的肌肉，但是美國有大腦——如果美國選擇大腦的話。我是英國人，我們也有同樣的問題。讓我們來賣思維成果，而不是t恤。[–]ScarlettailFloridaChina simply has the capability to adapt faster than us because of their authoritarian political system and massive resource potential. We could try to sell science but China"s been doing that for a while already, too. Since the recession, we"ve essentially become complacent and essentially given up any initiative we once had. China wisely found ways to both expand its influence in the world and be one step ahead of major innovations while the US was in economic withdrawal.中國有比我們更強的適應能力，就是由於中國的集權政治體制和巨大的資源潛力。我們可以嘗試出售科學（成果），但中國也已經這樣幹了一段時間了。自經濟衰退以來，我們基本上已經變得自滿，基本上放棄了我們曾經擁有的任何主動性。中國明智地找到了擴大其在世界上的影響力的方法，並在美國經濟退出的同時，成為了重大創新領域的領先者。[–]pornstar-martini Agree. You are well informed. I hope the US seizes back the initiative.贊同。你見多識廣。我希望美國找回主動性。[–]buildabeastNot necessarily a bad thing. China』s stated goal is to economic dominance. That will probably be better for the world than America』s 「world police」 m.o. The Chinese aren』t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.Especially if you don』t live in America you should welcome waning American influence. Sucks for you guys though.這並不一定是壞事。中國的明確目標是以經濟建設為中心。這對世界來說可能比美國的「世界警察」目標更好。中國人對向其他國家推廣他們的體制不感興趣。他們只是想賺錢。特別是如果你不生活在美國，你應該歡迎美國影響力的逐漸衰弱。儘管這對你們這些（美國）傢伙們來說很糟糕。[–]eth_rogenThe Chinese aren』t interested in expanding their system to other countries. They just want to make money.Very, very wrong. I suggest that you look at how they project their soft power overseas. They actively stifle speech critical of the CCP, even if it means kidnapping dissidents abroad and forcibly repatriating them to China for forced confessions. They disrupt and harass activists for such issues as Falun Gong across the world. They"re also more than happy to export their system of government to regimes in southeast Asia. Economics is a tool for them to stifle human rights across the world, doing things like exporting harsh riot control hardware to Maduro in Venezuela, using loans as leverage to extradite Taiwanese citizens to the mainland from Kenya, and punishing Korea for hosting US military hardware. The list in this regard is very, very long.You talk about the US being the world police, but this is a basic result of an EU completely lacking in hard power. The US is functionally in the position of being the "right arm" of the west, and often finds itself doing the dirty work of an EU that isn"t sufficiently advanced in terms of military integration.「中國人對向其他國家推廣他們的體制不感興趣。他們只是想賺錢」大錯特錯。我建議你看看他們是如何在海外投射他們的軟實力的。他們積極地壓制批評TG的言論，即使這意味著要在國外綁架持不同政見者，並強行將他們遣返中國進行bi供。他們因為諸如輪子一類的問題而在世界各地破壞和騷擾活動分子。他們也非常樂意將他們的政府體制輸出到東南亞國家。經濟是他們在世界範圍內壓制人權的工具，他們做一些類諸如向委內瑞拉的馬杜羅出口嚴酷的防暴裝備，利用貸款作為手段，將「台灣公民」（譯註：原文用Taiwanese citizens）從肯亞引渡到中國大陸，並因為部署美國軍事裝備而懲罰韓國。這種事情說也說不完。你說美國是世界警察，但這也是因為歐盟完全缺乏硬實力才導致的一種基本結果。從功能上講，美國是西方的「右臂」，而且經常發現自己在做那些由於歐盟軍事一體化方面還不夠先進，歐萌無法有效勝任的工作。[–]MrPoopMonsterNo. As an American this is good for me. It sucks for us that we waste Trillions of dollars maintaining our global status(through force) , when we could be spending that money on Americans, or protecting more immediate foreign interests, like Mexico.Really, we should completely pull out of the Middle East. Like, remove everything we can move, and sell the rest to the highest bidder. And then we should do the same with our European military assets. Take everything we can back, and sell the rest. Let China, Russia, or the EU handle everything in those regions.If we took the 6 trillion dollars we spent on the War on Terror, we could have made college free for everyone in America, given stimulus packages to cities in dire need (like Detroit or Baltimore), build renewable energy infrastructure, and probably could have destroyed the cartels and helped Mexico back into the first world.不。作為一個美國人，（美國退出，讓中國當世界警察）對我有好處。我們浪費了數萬億美元來維持我們的全球地位（通過武力），我們本可以把這些錢用在美國人身上，或者保護更直接的國外利益，比如墨西哥，這對我們來說很糟糕。真的，我們應該完全撤出中東。就像，把我們能帶走的東西都帶走，然後把剩下的賣給出價最高的人。然後我們也應該對我們的歐洲軍事資產做同樣的事情。把我們能收回的所有東西都拿回來，然後賣掉剩下的。讓中國、俄羅斯或歐盟處理這些地區的一切事務。如果我們沒有把6萬億美元花在反恐戰爭上，我們就可以讓所有美國人免費上大學，給迫切需要的城市（像底特律或巴爾的摩）提供刺激方案，建立可再生能源基礎設施，而且說不定已經摧毀了販毒集團，並幫助墨西哥重新回到第一世界了。[–]reddit_mind_control the chinese system today is closer to nazi Germany than any other country. Yea we should totally welcome it.1、highly nationalist2、one party authoritarian3、socialist party control over key industries4、based solely around the chinese ethnicity5、control over media, culture, to promote fatherhood, baby making, and chinese culture. All subversive influences like hip hop banned.6、belief in social Darwinism, racial IQ differences, and other taboo ideas in the west. Nobody here really knows just how conservative/racist countries in Asia are. I live there and its hilarious. If only you knew.The chinese look out for the chinese. They could give a rats ass about the rest of the world. Is that who you want to be the global leader?今天的中國體制比其他任何國家都更接近小鬍子德國。是的，我們應該完全歡迎它。1、高度的民族主義2、一黨毒菜3、社會主義政黨對關鍵產業的控制4、完全基於中國種族5、控制媒體，文化，促進父權，製造嬰兒和中國文化。所有破壞性的影響都被禁止了，比如嘻哈文化。6、對社會達爾文主義、種族智商差異以及其他在西方被禁止的觀念的信仰。這裡沒有人真正知道亞洲國家究竟有多麼保守/種族主義。我住在那裡，它很滑稽。如果只有你知道。中國人相互提防。他們可能會把世界其他地方搞得一團糟。你想讓誰成為全球領導者？[–]buildabeastYeah that』s a totally balanced and not at all biased view of the situation!1、it』s less nationalist than the US. Their military isn』t worshiped like heros like they are in America, and people never say stuff like 「I』m proud to be Chinese」 or 「China is the greatest country in the world」2、It』s also one of the most efficient systems in the world, for example in the city I live in they are tripling the size of the subway system and only taking 1 year to do so. That would be impossible in a western democracy.3、Not a problem. Actually benefits the majority of people by keeping costs low.4、That』s just not true, it』s not the CPCs fault that the vast majority of the country is Han, it』s just the reality.5、They banned hip hop on state run television. It』s influences are still all over the place. Western media blew that 「ban」 totally out of proportion. Western TV is hugely popular here. The only government control is on the internet and are easily bypassed with little fear of getting in trouble.6、I live in China. I doubt you do because you seem to not understand what it』s actually like living here.不是的，中國的體制是完全平衡的，和對這種情況的所有偏見根本不沾邊！1、它不像美國那麼民族主義。他們的軍隊不像在美國那樣受到英雄般的崇拜，而且人們從不（到處）說「我很自豪能成為中國人」或者「中國是世界上最偉大的國家」之類的話。2、它也是世界上最高效的體制之一，例如在我居住的城市，他們僅花了1年的時間就將地鐵系統的面積擴大了兩倍。這在西方民主國家是不可能坐到的。3、這不是問題。實際上，（國有產業）通過保持低成本，反而使大多數人受益。4、這不是真實的狀況，這不是TG的錯，因為這個國家的絕大多數都是漢族人，這就是現實。5、他們禁止在國家電視台播放嘻哈音樂。它的影響仍然無處存在。西方媒體遠遠誇大了這一「禁令」。西方電視節目在這裡非常受歡迎。政府唯一的控制是在互聯網上，造成的影響微乎其微，幾乎不用擔心會有麻煩。6、我生活在中國。我懷疑你這麼想，是因為你似乎不明白生活在這裡是究竟感受如何。[–]FewYogurtChinese people definitely have a "China is the greatest country/longest living civilization and we have to rise to make it great" cultural thinking, it"s also ingrained in school. I spent a lot of time in India, Malaysia and China, the post you replied to is hyperbolic but not really off the mark. Your response has many outright denials of obvious things.中國人肯定有一種「中國是世界上最偉大的國家/最長壽的文明，我們必須崛起使它偉大」的文化思想，它在學校也根深蒂固。我在印度、馬來西亞和中國待了很長時間，你的回復誇張，但並不是很離譜。你的回復中對很多明顯的事物都給予了否認。[–]buildabeast I』ve lived here for awhile and the closest I』ve ever heard is 「we have the longest continuous written history」. It』s much more common to hear people saying good things about the west than saying China is the best. There』s a different between being proud of your culture and being jingoistic. People hold Chinese people to an impossible standard.我在這裡住了一段時間，我所聽到的和你的帖子最接近的說法是「我們擁有最長的連續的成文史」。聽到人們說西方怎麼好的頻率比聽到說中國是最好的要高得多。對自己的文化感到自豪和沙文主義是有區別的。人們把中國人置於一個不現實的標準之上。[–]reddit_mind_controlI live thereand yes all of those things are true. Socialism with chinese characteristics is national socialism.probably why they are so successful.1、lmao sure. Yes the red army is worshipped as heroes. All kids study it as well as all of their historical figures. They memorize the stuff. You have to have blinders on not to see how nationalist the country is. Every kid does military training when they are in middle school.2、Yea, Nazi Germany was also one of the most efficient systems in the world, particularly when rebuilding after turmoil.3、see above.4、America is majority white, and so is Europe. Not their fault either. Although that doesnt stop leftists from turning that into a negative and something to be remedied. Seems like whites are more beloved in China than in their home nations. Where are the drives for China to be more diverse? Nobody cares because leftists are focused on destroying white nations. Chinese would laugh in your face if you tried that shit here.5、The biggest thing I noticed when I first moved here was the emphasis in all media towards fatherhood and families. In the west those things are demonized and mocked. Here they are promoted. Another thing the Nazis were well known for. Not saying its a bad thing though. Just highlights the weakness of a free press. Its free to degrade a society with poisonous morals.6、I understand what its like to live there. Been doing so for 5 years. I"m not judging them, because in all honestly a system like theirs is the only way to keep the country together. It may in the end prove more effective than western democracies. I"m merely pointing out the reality and the value differences to our left wing friends here. All of the criticisms of America as being racist, too right wing, etc. lmao. If only they knew.我住在那裡是的，所有這些都是真的。中國特色社會主義就是國jia社會主義。這可能就是他們如此成功的原因。1、哈哈，我確定。是的，紅軍被崇拜為英雄。所有的孩子都學習他們，就像其他的歷史人物一樣。他們銘記這些人。你除非戴個眼罩，才會看不到這個國家有多麼的民族主義。所有孩子在上中學的時候都要接受軍訓。2、是的，小鬍子德國也是世界上最高效的體制之一，特別是在混亂之後重建的時候。3、見第2點。4、美國主體是白人，歐洲也是如此。不是他們的錯。儘管這並不能阻止左派人士將其轉化為某種負面的現象，並要求加以糾正。白人似乎在中國比在他們自己國家還受歡迎。中國更加多樣化的動力在哪裡？沒有人在意，因為左派人士一心要摧毀白人國家。如果你試著在中國幹這種事，中國人會狠狠嘲笑你。5、當我第一次搬到這裡時，我注意到的最重要的事情是所有媒體對父權和家庭的強調。在西方，這些東西被妖魔化和嘲笑。在這裡他們卻推廣——這也是小鬍子主義的另一個眾所周知的特徵。不過，這並不是說這是件壞事。只是凸顯了自由媒體的缺乏。中國能夠隨心所欲地用「道德敗壞」來貶低某個社會團體。6、我知道住在那裡是什麼感覺。我已經住了5年了。我不是在評判他們，因為老實說，像他們這樣的體制是保持國家團結的唯一途徑。最終，它可能比西方民主國家更高效。我只是指出了現實情況和我們這裡的左翼朋友們的價值差異。所有對美國的批評都是種族主義，太右翼了，等等。呵呵，如果他們知道這些就好了。[–]FabulousHoboI』m an American. And there is nothing about our administration or government in general that makes me want us calling the shots on a global scale.我是一個美國人。總的來說，我們的政府和政府並沒有讓我想要我們在全球範圍內發號施令。[–]naanandcurry123 China is a way more responsible superpower for two reasons: it does not really believe in getting in endless constant wars and military operations like the US does and secondly it provides aid and economic development to poorer nations without lecturing them about their political systems. China also has way more competent and intelligent leaders, a Trump style pol in China is not possible. China also has a culture that values education and hard work and family, something the US does not中國是一個更負責任的超級大國，原因有二：它並不像美國那樣熱衷於發動無休止的戰爭和軍事行動；其次，它向較貧窮的國家提供援助，幫它們經濟發展，卻不對他們的政治體制進行說教。中國還有能力更強、更明智的領導人，在中國，是不可能出現特朗普式的政治人物的。中國還有一種重視教育、努力工作和家庭的文化，這是美國所不具備的[–]The_MagicCaliforniaChina also doesn"t have any democratic institutions and no concept of free speech. They also don"t have a fair judiciary so the government is free to execute protestors as long as international reporters can"t prove it.Definitely a great example for the rest of the world.中國也沒有任何民主制度，也沒有言論自由的概念。他們也沒有公正的司法系統，所以只要國際報道無法證明，政府就可以自由地處jue抗議者。對於世界其他國家來說，絕對是個好榜樣。[–]naanandcurry123And the US has good democratic institutions? Is that why a moron like Trump can become PResident when he doesn"t even win the popular vote, or you have gerrymandering permitting the GOP to control Congress even when they don"t win the most votes?Whenever americans discuss China all teh can whine about is free speech and democracy. maybe look at the US and see its not even democratic before whining about China.Oh and how is the US doing with executions and imprisoning its population? Or torturing people, or holding them in Gitmo with no charges for almost 20 years now?那麼美國就有很好的民主制度了？這就是為什麼像特朗普這樣的白痴在他甚至都沒有贏得多數選票的情況下就能成為總統，或者你們有不公正的選取劃分，允許共和黨在未贏得多數選票的情況下就控制了國會？每當美國人討論中國的時候，所有他們能抱怨的都是言論自由和民主。也許看看美國，在抱怨中國之前，（會發現）甚至它自己都不民主。哦，再看看美國是如何執行死刑和監禁自己的國民的？要麼虐待他們，要麼在沒有罪名的情況下把他們關在關塔那摩監獄近20年？[–]The_MagicCalifornia Nice whataboutism. I never said the U.S is perfect but if nothing else, Trump shows that even when the government hates a candidate they don"t intervene if he wins under their rules.And ya, the U.S executes people but China is on a whole different level. So no, the crimes of the U.S are not comparable to China.漂亮的whatabout主義（譯註：互相比爛），我從來沒有說過美國是完美的，但最起碼，特朗普能顯示出即使政府討厭這個參選人，但如果他按照競選規則贏得了大選，政府也不會出手干預。而且，對，美國也有死刑，但和中國完全不在同一個層面上。所以美國的罪犯和中國的沒有可比性。[–]naanandcurry123Have you even been to China? Americans have such a black and white view of China and the rest of the world. Its hilarious they whine about democracy, executions, jailing ppl, Tibet. Meanwhile the US does the same or worse shit all over the world. At least China minds its own business and doesnt kill hundreds of thousands in bullshit wars thousands of miles away你去過中國嗎？美國人對中國和世界其他國家的看法是如此的非黑即白。他們對民主、死刑、囚犯、西藏的抱怨很可笑。與此同時，美國卻在世界各地做著同樣或更糟糕的事情。至少中國是在想著自己的事情，也不會跑在千里之外的地方屠殺成千上萬的人。[–]SkyrickWhen the world is looking at what our freedoms brought us, it is easier to sell people the idea that those freedoms are unimportant. Trump was able to sell racist ideals through free speech. FOX news has sold that global warming isn』t an issue through free speech. The cost of free speech has been high in the US, and I don』t know if others looking at our example would necessarily want to follow us knowing that.當全世界都在關注我們的自由能帶給我們什麼的時候，向人們兜售那些自由不重要的觀點就更加容易。特朗普能夠通過言論自由兜售種族主義理想。福克斯新聞已經說過，全球變暖不是一個通過言論自由的問題。在美國，言論自由的代價是很高的，我不知道其他把我們作為樣例來關注的國家，是不是想效仿我們學到那個教訓。[–]The_MagicCaliforniaHaving a joke like Trump make decisions is preferable to being thrown in prison for criticizing the government.講個笑話：讓特朗普做決策比把批評政府的人關進監獄更好。[–]M00n[S]It would hurt our economy and China would get to control the narrative. China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.這將損害我們的經濟，而中國將會掌控話語權。中國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的。[–]zorblatt9China is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.Outside of America:America is corrupt, and with the power to influence other nations we would be in trouble.「中國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的」美國之外的看法：「美國是fu敗的，它擁有影響其他國家的能力，我們會有麻煩的」[–]PizzusChristHaving the global reserve currency is a nice perk. The dominance of the USD is a really good reason to bear that burden.擁有全球儲備貨幣是一項不錯的福利。美元的主導地位是承擔這一重擔的一個很好的理由。[–]Spanktank35 Am Aussie, I would rather make a deal with China by far. They would respect the deal and respect us. Its a shame considering Obama had so much respect from me.我是澳大利亞人，眼下我寧願與中國達成協議。他們會尊重協議並尊重我們。考慮到奧巴馬對我如此尊敬，這真是太丟臉了。[–]Buttcrack_SplitterAnd what does your "respect" do? does australia make a deal based on your "respect"?, some random internet guy "respect" is worth much less than a fart that come out during your morning shit你說的「尊重」是什麼？澳大利亞是否根據你的「尊重」來達成協議？某些路人網友「尊重」的價值比你早上大號時排除的甲烷氣體還要低得多。[–]Spanktank35 Respect means countries turn to you for leadership and are more cooperative. Right now a lot of big deals are being made without you since it isn"t worth the hassle or risk.Not to mention, Americans like you pissing off citizens like me makes it unpopular to work with you. So yes, Australia does make deals based on its population"s respect. That really shouldn"t be a question?Trump is going back on deals and spilling intelligence heck your country isn"t even trustworthy anymore.尊重意味著各國向你尋求領導，並更加合作。現在，很多大宗交易都是在沒有你們的情況下進行的，因為它不值得承擔麻煩或風險。更不用說，像你這樣的美國人，對像我這樣的公民羞辱嘲諷，這種做法讓你們不受歡迎。所以，是的，澳大利亞確實是根據人民的尊重來達成交易的。這真的不應該成為一個問題嗎？特朗普正在反悔交易，泄露情報，見鬼，你們的國家已經不再值得信任了。[–]ftjlsterGot to say, I"ve been wondering how much how world leaders feel about Trump might be affecting their willingness to start or continue trade negotiations with the US.我想說的是，我一直在想，世界各國領導人對特朗普的看法，在多大程度上可能會影響他們開啟或繼續與美國進行貿易談判的意願。[–]NyetFlexAndShillWe surrendered that back in 1993 when Clinton signed the China Trade Agreement. Between that and NAFTA, we shipped manufacturing and farming overseas and across borders from rural America and effectively killed that demographic and turned it into what it is today to maximize corporate profits.我們在1993年柯林頓簽署了與中國的貿易協定時就已經把世界推向了中國。在此之後和北美自貿協定達成之前，我們將製造業和農業從美國農村地區轉移到了海外，並有效地消滅了這一人群，並將其轉化為今天的企業利潤最大化[–]555-1234 Everyone hated the TPP, and it had its flaws, but it was better than the alternative- handing the next generation of economic power to China. Which Trump was eager to do.每個人都討厭TPP，它也有自己的缺點，但它比另一種選擇要好——把下一代的經濟實力交給中國。特朗普就迫不及待地要這樣做。[–]awful_neutralTennessee When did American hegemony suddenly become cool again? Is it because it"s the perceived opposite of Trump"s direction?Don"t get me wrong, I don"t think that China becoming a more dominant force on the global stage is a good thing, but I don"t think America"s "world police" is a force of good either. I thought that was just a given after endless disasters in both the Cold War era and the current conflicts in the Middle East.I don"t think it"s unfair for Americans to be growing tired of the burden that comes with the title, or for people across the world to be tired of us shoving our finger in the pot. Obviously Trump isn"t the answer, and hasn"t handled this problem well at al.美國霸權什麼時候突然變酷了？是因為這是與特朗普的方向相反的嗎？不要誤解我的意思，我不認為中國在全球舞台上成為一股主導力量是件好事，但我也不認為美國的「世界警察」身份就是一股正義的力量。我認為，這只是冷戰時期和中東當前衝突不斷的災難之後的一種既定的安排。我認為美國人越來越厭倦這個標題中夾雜的負擔是很公平的，或者說世界各地的人們都厭倦了我們把手伸到他們的鍋里。很明顯特朗普不是答案，也根本沒有處理好這個問題。[–]OddScienceBecause the dumbasses don"t realize that America"s wealth is propped up based on that. You don"t give that up without giving up a lot of other shit and the morons haven"t figured that out yet. There"s also no take backsies and there"s very long term consequences to what will happen. If another nation takes that mantle, you can"t just undo it or change your mind later.I wish someone would smack each and every one of the idiots with a history book. Very hard. America"s rise to power happened because at that time all the other large nations destroyed themselves in war. America profited off of that war, took that money and ran away with it. They established strong footholds that enabled them to get great global trade deals.Things like rebuilding Japan wasn"t so much for them as it was for us. All that bullshit in the Middle East was also for us. Did you forget? We started shit there so we could get money. UN? Built for us. NATO? built for us. They were mechanisms established so US could maintain power on an international stage.Seeing people trying to destroy those things because they"re too stupid.因為這些愚蠢的人沒有意識到美國的財富是建立在美國的地位之上的。你要是放棄它，你還得放棄很多其他的東西，而那些笨蛋還沒有意識到這一點。也沒有什麼倒退，而且未來結果如何還要很長時間才能看到。如果另一個國家接過了這個重任，你就不能在以後按ctrl+z或者反悔了。我希望有人會拿一本歷史書來反駁每一個白痴。狠狠地反駁。美國的崛起之所以會發生，是因為當時所有其他大國都在戰爭中毀滅了自己。美國從那場戰爭中獲利，拿走了那筆錢，然後就帶著它走人。他們建立了牢固的立足點，使他們能夠掌控巨大的全球貿易協議。像重建日本這樣的事情對他們來說並不像對我們來說那麼重要。中東的那些JB事都是為我們的利益服務的。你忘記了嗎？我們開始在那裡攪shi，然後我們能從中獲利。聯合國？是為我們而設的。北約？是為我們而設的。它們是建立起來的機制，這樣美國就能在國際舞台上維持權力。看到人們在試圖摧毀這些東西，原因是他們太愚蠢了。[–]PizzusChrist It"ll take a decade to repair the damage to the State Department. It"ll take another to re-enforce the Monroe doctrine. US power has persistently grown since WWII and for the first time since FDR we are a weaker nation internationally.Trump"s legacy will be a skid mark on the Oval Office. Absolute fucking disgrace of a President.修復對國務院的損害需要十年的時間。而要重新執行門羅主義還要再花10年時間。自二戰以來，美國的實力一直在增長，而現在，自羅斯福總統以來，我們第一次成為在國際上較弱的國家。特朗普的政治遺產將成為總統辦公室的一個「滑痕」。總統的絕對恥辱。[–]WinterTeachingMonroe doctrine.This is why China wins. American unilateral hegemony will no longer pass. The US wants to dominate and control, China is looking for partnerships.「門羅主義」這就是中國獲勝的原因。美國的單邊霸權將不復存在。美國想要主導和控制，而中國正在尋找合作夥伴。[–]Tombot3000 China is not looking for partnerships. They"re adopting the guise of partnerships while working towards domination and control. It doesn"t take long to see that any time they alhave the opportunity to, they attempt to control their "partners."中國並不是在尋找合作夥伴。他們以夥伴關係為偽裝，以控制為目的。用不了多久你就能看到，他們就會有機會去控制自己的「合作夥伴」。[–]tat3179As far as I am concerned, all major powers will attempt to dominate and control at some point, including the US. At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.就我個人而言，所有主要大國都將試圖在某一時刻支配和控制，包括美國。至少，我不認為中國無人機很快就會去尋找穆斯林恐怖分子（承擔起反恐的職責）。[–]SnowflakeMod At the very least, I am not expecting Chinese drones looking for Muslim terrorist anytime soon.Then you know little to nothing about Chinese history. You should start reading about how they treat their own muslim minority, then reuate how you think they will treat them in countries from which China is extracting resources.「至少，我不認為中國無人機很快就會去尋找穆斯林恐怖分子（承擔起反恐的職責）」那你對中國的歷史一無所知。你應該開始閱讀他們如何對待自己的穆斯林少數民族，然後重新評估你認為他們將如何對待他們正在獲取資源的國家的那些穆斯林。[–]tat3179 Oh, I have been reading a lot about Chinese history. My country was practically existed because of China.Put it this way. China never conquered SEA like the Europeans do. Sure, they demand tribute and that they acknowledge that China is top dog in the world, there never have been Chinese troops invading and imposing Confucianism onto countries.I assure you, living next to that giant we have plenty of historical dealings with them.And about the Uighurs that is my point about China, the Muslims don"t really give a fuck. Just a couple of days the Muslims in my country decided to send back Uighurs that escaped Thailand back to China on their request. They never protested like they way they protest against you about treatment of Muslims.See, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business. China never invaded Iraq, never invade Afghanistan. Simple as that. You may not like what I say, but that is the truth.哦，我讀了很多關於中國歷史的書。，我的國家是因為中國才在事實上經存在的。這麼說吧。中國從來沒有像歐洲人那樣征服海洋。當然，他們要求貢品，他們承認中國是世界上最NB的國家，中國軍隊從來沒有入侵併把儒家思想強加於別的國家。我向你保證，住在那個巨人旁邊會給我們帶來和他們的很多歷史交易。關於維吾爾人，我對中國的看法是，穆斯林並不是真的不在乎。就在幾天前，我國的穆斯林決定把逃到泰國的維吾爾人遣返回中國。他們從不以他們抗議你對待穆斯林的那種方式抗議中國。看吧，到頭來，中國在其境內所做的事情就是他們的家事。中國從來沒有入侵過伊拉克，從來沒有入侵過阿富汗。就這麼簡單。你可能不喜歡我說的話，但那是事實。[–]SnowflakeModSee, in the end, what China does within its borders are their business.Until they start exporting the same treatment overseas. If you are sufficiently naive to believe they will treat foreigners who threaten their economic interests better than their own citizens, I can only shake my head.「看吧，到頭來，中國在其境內所做的事情就是他們的家事」直到他們開始向海外輸出同樣的對待（穆斯林的）方式。如果你足夠天真地相信，他們會對待那些威脅他們經濟利益的外國人比對待他們自己的公民更友善，我只能搖頭。[–]tat3179As far as I am concerned, an Iraqi, Syrian, Yemeni or peoples from MENA countries have nothing to fear from China"s drones. The Yemenis however, have many many reasons to fear US ones.Of course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear. I mean, being Swedish will not protect you, of course. But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place. After all, democractic dissidents not in China are hardly molested.In the end, my point applies, what China does within its borders is still China"s business. You may not like it, but that is the fact. However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.就我個人而言，來自中東和北非地區的伊拉克、敘利亞、葉門或人民對中國的無人機沒有什麼可擔心的。然而，葉門人有很多理由害怕美國。當然，如果你是中國國內的持不同政見者，那麼你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保護不了你。但話又說回來，如果你知道這些危險，你一開始就應該離開那裡。畢竟，中國之外的民主異見人士幾乎沒有被騷擾。最後，我的觀點是，中國在其境內所做的事情仍然是中國的事情。你可能不喜歡它，但這是事實。然而，如果你能證明中國以某種理由軍事入侵了某個非洲國家，或許我們可以嚴肅地討論這個問題。[–]SnowflakeModOf course, if you are a dissident in China, well, you have all the reasons to fear... But then again, if you know the dangers, you should have gotten the fuck out in the first place.Or China could become civilized.However, if you can show proof on cases where China militarily invades an African country for whatever reasons, perhaps we can talk seriously.Lol, get ready!「當然，如果你是中國國內的持不同政見者，那麼你就有理由害怕了。我的意思是，瑞典人的身份保護不了你。但話又說回來，如果你知道這些危險，你一開始就應該離開那裡」中國也可以變成文明國家（為什麼必須是離開中國）。「然而，如果你能證明中國以某種理由軍事入侵了某個非洲國家，或許我們可以嚴肅地討論這個問題」呵呵，中國已經做準備了！[–]tat3179Or China could become civilized.See, this kind of attitude just make people pissed off with the US and the West. Especially when it is spoken off Trump"s mouth. "We westerners are superior and with civilization. You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilized barbarians. China, let go of Tibet". And people like you wonder why in Reddit there are so many Chinese nationals practically give you the finger whenever you moan about China.As for your article, I call that smart use of power. Instead of drones and boots on the ground, they could topple governments by economics and influence alone. Something the US could do long time ago. Now, you rely more on dumb brute force.「中國也可以變成文明國家」看，這種態度只會讓人們對美國和西方感到憤怒。尤其是當它從特朗普的嘴裡說出來的時候。「我們西方人更優秀，更文明。你們這些低等的民族必須聽我們的，否則你們就是不文明的野蠻人。中國，放開西藏」。像你這樣的人想知道為什麼在紅迪網上有這麼多中國公民，在你抱怨中國的時候，他們會向你豎中指。至於你的文章，我稱之為對力量的巧妙應用。他們可以用經濟和影響力來推翻政府，而不是用無人機和地面部隊。美國很久以前就能做的事情。現在，你更依賴於愚蠢的蠻力。[–]SnowflakeMod Especially when it is spoken off Trump"s mouth.Yeah, we hate Trump because he acts too much like a Chinese official, criticizing free press, looking at global trade competitively, etc.You other inferior nations must listen to us or you are uncivilised barbarians.You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.「尤其是當它從特朗普的嘴裡說出來的時候」是的，我們討厭特朗普，因為他表現得太像一個中國官員，批評自由媒體，用競爭性的眼光看待全球貿易，等等。「你們這些低等的民族必須聽我們的，否則你們就是不文明的野蠻人」如果你們折磨那些批評你們虛弱政府的人，你們就是不文明的。我們希望，最終，你將會學到足夠的知識，成為一個19世紀的強國。這些人不應該因為想要過上更好的生活而受到殘酷的懲罰，也不應該有這麼一個對他們的生活只有一絲尊重的政府。這些人是道德英雄，而TG對他們的折磨是不文明的。[–]tat3179You are uncivilized if you torture people who criticize your weak government. We hope, eventually, you will learn enough to become a nineteenth century power. Those people do not deserve to be brutally punished just for wanting a better life and a government that has a shred of respect for their lives. Those people are moral heroes and the CCP is uncivilized for torturing them.Yes. Continue to lecture over them. Continue to belittle them. I am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way. It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".「如果你們折磨那些批評你們虛弱政府的人，你們就是不文明的。我們希望，最終，你將會學到足夠的知識，成為一個19世紀的強國。這些人不應該因為想要過上更好的生活而受到殘酷的懲罰，也不應該有這麼一個對他們的生活只有一絲尊重的政府。這些人是道德英雄，而TG對他們的折磨是不文明的」是的。繼續對他們進行說教。繼續貶低他們。我相信你會以這種方式改變很多人的想法。對你來說可能不想看到這個事實，但你確實意識到，對於絕大多數中國人來說，撇開對政府的一般性抱怨不談，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他們尤其不滿西方國家稱他們和他們的政府「不文明」。[–]SnowflakeModI am sure you are going to change a lot minds this way.I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.It may be a very bitter pill for you to swallow, but you do realise that for the vast majority of Chinese there, the CCP enjoys very high popular support, usual grumbles about the government aside, and particular resent Western peoples calling them and their governnment "uncivilised".It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.「我相信你會以這種方式改變很多人的想法」我並不是在試圖改變人們的想法。我說的是實話。虛弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可恥的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些這麼做的政府，你就活在18世紀。這是底線。「對你來說可能不想看到這個事實，但你確實意識到，對於絕大多數中國人來說，撇開對政府的一般性抱怨不談，TG享有很高的民意支持，而且他們尤其不滿西方國家稱他們和他們的政府『不文明』」對酷刑受害者來說，這是痛苦的，但總有一天他們會重獲自由，並且中國將有一個合法的政府。[–]tat3179I am not trying to change minds. I am telling the truth. Weak governments torturing people for wanting better lives is vile. If you support it, or support governments that do it, you belong in the eighteenth century. That is the bottom line.Dunno about living in the 18th century. But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.It is bitter for the torture victims, but one day they will be free and China will have a legitimate government.That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...「我並不是在試圖改變人們的想法。我說的是實話。虛弱的政府折磨追求更好的生活的人是可恥的。如果你支持它，或者支持那些這麼做的政府，你就活在18世紀。這是底線」我不知道生活在18世紀的情況。但在我走訪中國的時候，他們過得肯定是21世紀的生活。「對酷刑受害者來說，這是痛苦的，但總有一天他們會重獲自由，並且中國將有一個合法的政府」這聽起來像你個人的觀點，夥計，而且坦率地講，我懷疑你不是中華人民共和國公民……[–]SnowflakeMod But during the times I visited China, they sure are living in the 21st.Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it"s still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.That is like your opinion, man, and I frankly doubt you are a PRC citizen...Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.「但在我走訪中國的時候，他們過得肯定是21世紀的生活」在19世紀，合法的政府和受過教育的人在折磨持不同政見者的過程中成長起來。如果這種情況還出現（在中國），那你的國家就是不文明、陳舊的，落後於美國的兩百年左右。「這聽起來像你個人的觀點，夥計，而且坦率地講，我懷疑你不是中華人民共和國公民……」我當然不是。如果我是中華人民共和國公民，我就會因為發了這些話而被逮捕和折磨。[–]tat3179Legitimate governments and educated people outgrew torturing dissidents in the nineteenth century. If it"s still happening, your country is uncivilized, archaic and two-hundred or so years behind the US.MY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC. I am just a outside observer telling you what I see. China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised".But you know what, keep beating that wall with your head. It changes nothing and I assure you, many people don"t see what you see, because the world doesn"t revolve around "western values", really.Of course I am not. If I were a PRC citizen, I would be arrested and tortured for typing that.More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.「在19世紀，合法的政府和受過教育的人在折磨持不同政見者的過程中成長起來。如果這種情況還出現（在中國），這個國家就是不文明、陳舊的，落後於美國的兩百年左右」我的國家？哦，我的……我不是來自中華人民共和國。我只是一個旁觀者，在告訴你我所看到的。中國和你這樣的人有不同的價值觀，但你知道嗎，我沒有聽到像你這樣傲慢的人說別人是「不文明的」。但是你知道嗎，用你的頭繼續撞牆。它什麼也沒改變，我向你保證，很多人看不到你看到的東西，因為這個世界真的並不以「西方價值觀」為中心的。「我當然不是。如果我是中華人民共和國公民，我就會因為發了這些話而被逮捕和折磨」聽起來更像你的一些帖子因為某些插件被刪掉了。僅此而已。中國不是朝鮮，甚至不像朝鮮，他們的人民一直在網上對政府發牢騷。事實就是如此。[–]SnowflakeModMY country? Oh my....I am not from the PRC.Your is a common English usage, my bad if I was unclear, but it"s a general statement because China is not the only offending country. China"s ally, North Korea, also tortures dissidents.China has somewhat different values from people like you, but you know what, I have not heard something as arrogant as you as calling others "uncivilised"... many people don"t see what you see, because the world doesn"t revolve around "western values", really.There is no difference in values that justifies torturing dissidents. Only the difference is between human values and uncivilized, illegitimate government. Torturing dissidents is more fitting of archaic forms of government, like monarchy or empire, happily relegated to the past in civilized countries.More likely you get post deleted by some mods. That is all. China is not North Korea, not even close, and their people bitch online all the time about the government. That is a fact.Unless you are arrested for internet posts criticizing government corruption.「我的國家？哦，我的……我不是來自中華人民共和國」你的英語水平一般般，如果說錯了是我沒搞清楚，但這是一個籠統的說法，因為中國並不是唯一具有冒犯行為的國家。中國的盟友朝鮮也在折磨持不同政見者。「中國和你這樣的人有不同的價值觀，但你知道嗎，我沒有聽到像你這樣傲慢的人說別人是『不文明的』。但是你知道嗎，用你的頭繼續撞牆。它什麼也沒改變，我向你保證，很多人看不到你看到的東西，因為這個世界真的並不以「西方價值觀」為中心的」就折磨異見者而言不存在價值觀上的區別。唯一的區別在於人類的價值觀和不文明的、不合法的政府之間。折磨持不同政見者更符合古老的政府形式，如君主制或帝國，而在文明國家中這已愉快地成為過去。「聽起來更像你的一些帖子因為某些插件被刪掉了。僅此而已。中國不是朝鮮，甚至不像朝鮮，他們的人民一直在網上對政府發牢騷。事實就是如此」除非你因為網路帖子批評政府腐敗而被捕（譯註：新聞鏈接）[–]Tombot3000 That"s whataboutism mixed with a lack of understanding that there are different degrees of attempting to control others. France and Russia both attempt to influence Europe, but the methods and motives for each are different.Your cherry picked example is just showing one side. I could easily reply with "At the very least, I"m not expecting the USA to build military installations in other countries waters without their permission."這是混雜了對「試圖控制他人的程度是不同的」 不理解的「whatabout主義」。法國和俄羅斯都試圖影響歐洲，但它們的方法和動機各不相同。你的主觀選擇性的例子只是展示了一個方面。我可以很容易地回答：「起碼，我不指望美國在未經當事國允許的情況下在其他國家的水域建造軍事設施。」[–]tat3179 Interesting that you deem historical facts as "whataboutism". Also, the actions of France and Russia doesn"t just "attempt to influence Europe", unless you deem Syria, the stans, Mali and Francophone African states "Europe".The US did build military installations in other countries without their permission. I didn"t recall the Taliban or god knows who else in charge or Saddam gave the US military permission to build bases there.有趣的是，你把歷史事實看成「whatabout主義」。此外，法國和俄羅斯的行為不僅僅是「試圖影響歐洲」，除非你認為敘利亞、施坦斯、馬里和法語非洲國家是「歐洲」。美國的確在未經允許的情況下在其他國家建造了軍事設施。我不記得塔利班還是上帝知道還有誰負責任，還是薩達姆，允許美國軍方在那裡建立了基地。[–]Tombot3000 If you want to compare with other countries, look at their circumstances, norms of the time, and so on.My example wasn"t to say influencing Europe is the only thing those countries do -- it"s pointing out that two countries can have the same goal but different methods and motives.The examples you"re giving are wartime temporary forward bases that were removed when requested by the re-formed government. That"s significantly different from simply taking over part of a country you"re not at war with and staying there despite their protests.如果你想和其他國家比較，就要看看他們的實際情況，時間的標準，等等。我的例子並不是說影響歐洲是這些國家唯一做的事情——而在於指出，兩個國家可以有相同的目標，但方法和動機不同。你所舉的例子是戰時臨時的前線基地，它們後來在重新組建的政府的要求下被移除了。這與簡單地接管一個你沒有與之開戰的國家，並在他們的抗議下呆在那裡的情況有很大的不同。[–]KiyasuMaybe not over the middle east, but western China over their Muslim populations? Wouldn"t doubt it in another few years.It"s not like China hasn"t been attacking it"s own ethnic Muslim minorities over the last few years, there"s always another crackdown, always more rules. If they"re willing to run over Han protesters in the capital of China with tanks why on Earth would they not use drones if they felt it was needed? I wouldn"t bet money on China not using drones on people in the near future.Don"t get me wrong, it"s behaviors the US already shows, I"m just not buying the Chinese PR just because they"ve got a better message, the same guys that will kill their own civilians rather than give up any power are still there, still ruling.也許不是在中東（反穆斯林），而是中國西部的穆斯林人口呢？我不會懷疑在未來的幾年裡這種情況就會發生。這並不像中國在過去幾年裡沒有攻擊自己的穆斯林少數民族，一直都存在另一種鎮壓，總是有更多的（針對性）規則。如果他們願意在中國的首都用水櫃壓漢族抗議者，那憑什麼他們就不會在覺得有必要的情況下使用無人機呢？我不會賭中國不會在不久的將來對人們使用無人機。不要誤解我的意思，這是美國已經展示的行為，我只是不買中國對外宣傳的帳，只是因為他們已經傳遞了更明確的信息，那些同樣的寧願消滅自己公民也不願放棄任何權力的人，仍然在那裡，仍然統治著。[–]tat3179In the end, what they do in their borders is their business. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it is their country. You may not like Tibet is now an integral part of China, so what? That is the defacto fact of life. What matters is how China treats other sovereign states through its history. The fact now that they have the ability to supplant you in countries where you left speaks volumes.Harping on Tibet or West China changes nothing. Fact is, no one really gives a fuck what China does within its borders. Take that bookkeeper kidnapping case for instance, will the EU going to brake off ties with China just because Sweden is pissed off? Nope.說到底，他們在自己邊境線以內怎麼做那是他們的家事。你可能不喜歡它，我可能不喜歡它，但它是他們的國家（我們管不著）。你可能不喜歡西藏現在是中國不可分割的一部分，那又怎樣？這就是現實生活中的事實。重要的是中國如何對待其他主權國家的歷史。他們有能力在你們離開的國家取代你們這一事實已經重分說明了問題。對西藏或中國西部嘰嘰喳喳改變不了任何事實。事實是，沒有人真正在乎中國在其境內所做的事情。以逮捕書店老闆事件為例，歐盟是否會因為瑞典的憤怒而切斷與中國的聯繫？不會。[–]Tombot3000我為什麼覺得我應該給你五毛。。。What they do within their borders is an indication of what they would like to do internationally, and is important to many people.Regardless, I agree with you that the best indicator is how they treat others. Let"s see, off the top of my head the CCP has...1、Warred with India and Vietnam over territorial disputes.2、aggressively encroached on the Philippines, Japan, and South Korea and their maritime resources.3、Attempted to economically bully SK over THAAD.4、Repeatedly and extensively attempted to undermine Taiwan』s independence.5、Undertaken extensive cyber espionage campaign against Western powers.6、Ignored the sovereignty of foreign nations over ethnically Chinese individuals.7、consistently stolen foreign IP and military tech.8、manipulated their currency subsidized local companies in violation of World Bank, IMF, and trade agreement statutes.As far as "no one cares" there"s a reason why China has no allies, only one military partner (Pakistan, not exactly an A-lister) and foreign investment has been shifting to competitors year after year despite significant skill and infrastructure advantages held by the Chinese. No one on the international stage trusts China.我為什麼覺得我應該給你五毛。。。（譯註：我cao，原文為中文，辯了這麼久，才發現居然是個輪子在和一個對中國很了解的老外在論戰）他們在境內所做的事情正表明了他們想在國際上做些什麼，這對許多人來說很重要。無論如何，我同意你的觀點，最好的指標是他們如何對待他人。讓我們看看，在我的腦海中，TG的表現如何……1、與印度和越南在領土爭端問題上爭執。2、積極侵佔菲律賓、日本、韓國及其海洋資源。3、企圖在經濟上威脅韓國。4、不斷地、廣泛地試圖破壞台灣的du立。5、對西方大國進行了廣泛的網路間諜活動。6、忽視外籍華人的外國主權。7、不斷地竊取外國知識產權和軍事技術。8、違反世界銀行、國際貨幣基金組織和貿易協定法，操縱本國貨幣補貼的當地企業。就「沒人關心」而言，中國沒有盟友是有原因的，只有一個軍事夥伴（巴基斯坦，還不是一個一線國家），而且外國投資每年都在向中國的競爭對手轉移，儘管中國擁有大量的技術和基礎設施優勢。在國際舞台上，沒有人信任中國。[–]tat3179Again, like I said, if you are not in direct territorial disputes with them, there are no reason to be scared, at least militarily. My country has territorial dispute with them, and now we are deeply tied with China economically.As for your list, yeah, there is called looking after your interest. I could swap your list with the US too if I am bothered. I am not denying it factually, but as far as I am concerned, this is what powers do in its own interest.As for your argument about allies, we shall see. Xi Jingping may be a strongman, but he is an effective captain so far managing China"s interest. Beats Trumpism anytime though. Also, I am not optimistic that Americans will not vote another Trump like idiot in the future.再一次，就像我說的，如果你和他們沒有直接的領土爭端，至少在軍事上是沒有理由害怕的。我的國家與他們有領土爭端，但現在我們在經濟上與中國緊密相連。至於你的清單，是的，有一種說法叫做維護自身利益。如果我覺得很煩，我也可以拿美國列一串清單來懟你。我並不是在否認這一點，但就我而言，這不過是以實力為自己謀利益而已。至於你關於盟友的爭論，我們將拭目以待。586可能是一個強人，但到目前為止，他也是一位卓有成效的為中國謀利益的領導人。儘管總是與「特朗普主義」相對抗。此外，我並不樂觀地認為，美國人將來還會向白痴一樣再次投票給特朗普。[–]Tombot3000Half of what I listed has nothing to do with territorial disputes but are still good reasons to be wary of China.Having allies isn"t really a "we shall see" thing; it"s been consistent since the Sino-Soviet split.Xi Jinping effectiveness is certainly debatable. That is a "we shall see" issue. As far as him being better than Trump I mostly agree, except for the fact that he"s far more competent and able to hold onto power and change the system -- if you don"t like those changes, better to have a moron.我列出的一半與領土爭端沒有任何關係，但仍有理由對中國保持警惕。有沒有盟友並不是真正的「我們將拭目以待」的事物；自從中蘇分裂以來，中國一直沒有盟友。586的成效當然是有爭議的。這才是一個「我們將拭目以待」的問題。至於他比特朗普要好，我基本上同意，除了他更有能力、更有能力掌握權力並改變體制——但如果你不喜歡這類變化，那還不如有個白痴當總統。[–]tat3179Small countries should be wary big countries as a rule, if they want to survive that is. Funny you think that the US is somehow better than the Chinese in that regard.The Sino-Soviet split is ancient history. The Soviets are no more, and China is far more powerful, richer and influential than the 60s. China is just starting the process of building the very same institutions the US had for decades. Before that, they are just busy minding their business, if you do follow global events. Perhaps it won"t be as effective the US influence, again, time will tell.Trump is a mere sympthon of a bigger problem in the US. The US is very badly fractured that it is no joke. Corporations practically owns the government. Dumb people speaks louder than actual smart people.As for your moron argument - if you have no competitor as intense a China that 4 years moronic rule wouldn"t matter. Put it this way, if you want to contain China, best time to do so was in the 90s. That was over. 2nd best time, the 2000s. Oops. Instead of managing China, the US chooses to mess with Central Asia and Middle East. Obama tried during the his last 4 years, barely could do so until the US elected an actual moron that undid what Obama tried to so.China is not going to sit still for the next 4 years. And I am not sure the US won"t elect another moron in 4 years time or the next for 4 years afterwards.如果想要生存下去，小國應該警惕大國，這是常理。有趣的是，你認為美國在這方面比中國人好。中蘇分裂是古老的歷史。蘇聯已經不復存在，中國比60年代更強大、更富有、更有影響力。中國剛剛開始建立美國已經擁有了幾十年的體系。在此之前，如果你真的關注全球事件，中國只是在忙於自己的事情。或許，中國的影響力不會像美國那樣有效，時間仍然會告訴我們。特朗普只是美國所面臨的一個更大問題的一個案例。美國的分裂非常嚴重，這可不是鬧著玩的。實際上政府被企業所擁有。而愚蠢的人比真正聰明的人話語權更大。至於你的白痴論點——如果你沒有像中國那樣的激烈競爭對手，那麼4年輪迴的白痴規則也就無所謂了。換句話說，如果你想遏制中國，最好的時機是在90年代。而那已經成為過去。第二個最好的時間點，是21世紀頭10年。老天啊。美國沒有處理中國，而是選擇與中亞和中東廝混。奧巴馬在他最後的4年任期里嘗試過，差不多就要看到成效了，直到美國選出了一個真正的白痴，推翻了奧巴馬努力耕耘的一切。在接下來的4年里，中國不會幹坐著發獃。而我不確定美國是否會在4年內或之後的4年里再選一個白痴。推薦閱讀：
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