女科學家真的存在「玻璃天花板」嗎?
大抵性別意識是中國傳統觀念培養所致 古時所謂女子無才便是德 大門不出二門不邁相夫教子乃是犧牲小我成全家庭的高尚品德 後來隨著女性獨立主權運動 中國女性也被喚起了覺醒意識追求自主自由以及自我事業 然而依舊有根深蒂固的觀念 覺得女主內 男主外是大勢所趨 所以家庭事業 大多數女人定當以家庭為主 撫養孩子 照顧老人 甚至支持老公工作 這些繁瑣的家務事必定消耗大量的時間精力 致使女人無法專註高端科研 即使個別女人小時喜愛科研 也是興趣所致 在專業擇取時亦要考慮就業前景 甚至一些體力因素 外界干擾 最終大多選擇保障未來安穩生活的康庄大道 總體來說 是社會導向所致 然而怪不得社會 還是女性自己不夠堅定 害怕面對未知的未來 抑或是家境不夠優渥 必須考慮未來的生活 當然 那些所謂不思進取 拜金主義 或者一勞永逸的女性就更加不會選擇如此苛責自己的生活方式了
作為一個今年剛剛高中畢業的女生 不對女科學家是否有玻璃天花板做評論 但是這個社會 本來就對女性有偏見 最簡單的就是當你為了爭取自己的正當權利而和一個男性說男女平等時 男性會說:男女平等個XX 什麼時候男人和女人一樣來大姨媽 並且負責生孩子的時候 你再跟我說男女平等(更可氣的是許多本來反抗的女生怯弱的同意他的觀點) 我認為 男女平等 平等的不是生理 而是思想 但是如果人們給自己的孩子從小灌輸的 就是你是個男孩 你應該比女孩子強 你不能輸給女孩子 或者你是個女孩 你必須比男孩子弱小 你要依靠男生才能怎樣怎樣這樣的思想 請問怎麼做到男女平等?這樣的教育方式和思維偏見必定導致各種對女性的偏見 至少我是這麼認為的 謝謝
轉一個Caltech物理系葉乃裳教授的訪問,還有做在MIT做凝聚態理論的文小剛的看法
還有一篇15年底Lisa Randall的採訪,也談到這個問題,不過是英文的,有空再翻。主要觀點是待遇不同是存在的,而且現在她出名了,就各種媒體問她作為女物理學家怎樣怎樣,比如現在這個採訪,這就更浪費她時間了。The One Question This Brilliant Physicist Wants People To Stop Asking HerYeh:「對我不會造成困擾啦,因為當時在台大
我們班也只有我一個女生。我過得其實都很好,我的同學他們都對我很好,大概我的個性有點像tomboy,我可以跟男生混在一起,所以不覺得怎麼樣。回答你的問題,我通常不去想
那麼多,因為當初要念物理,我就是專心做自己喜歡做的事,我就說神經少幾條,不去管人家怎麼看、怎麼想,不去在意一些小事情,這對我來說是一個好處。
「但是呢,女性少是有問題的。事實上在美國的情況比台灣嚴重。說實在,物理學界對女性的隱形歧視還是存在。在東方這個環境,功課好的話,不管你是男生或女生都會受尊重,因
為大家很尊重學業好的人,這多少與那種士大夫的傳統有一點關係。可是在美國的話,初、高中的階段,尤其在高中階段,很多時候功課好會被貼標籤,被人家認為是怪物、nerdy,尤
其是女孩子,尤其是如果妳還是科學、數學好的話,會被貼很難聽的標籤。而且他們很奇怪,我說在一般的學校里,一般年紀的女孩子好像很在意外表,很在意被男生追求這件事,這個
很要命。為什麼?因為功課好的女生會被貼標簽,說妳們一定是那種non-attractive、很不漂亮、很沒有吸引力,才會有辦法把功課念那麼好。很多事實上應該蠻有天份的女孩子,對於
走科學領域,尤其像物理這種非常陽剛的東西,會裹足不前,因為她們很怕被貼標籤、很怕被認為non-attractive。很多女孩子跟我談過這種不愉快的經驗,而她們其實非常優秀。
「在Caltech 就不會這樣,大家都會互相尊重,▲ 葉乃裳教授(左)與實驗室的學生,其中亦有女學生。因為大家都很優秀,女孩子比例也不算太少;
但是她們也有跟我說,她們在中學的經驗有時候相當不愉快。在美國那種環境下進入科學領域的女孩子,本來就會比較少,會被那個環境嚇跑,被那種莫名奇妙的世俗成見嚇跑,這是
女性少的原因之一。「再過來的階段是大學畢業進研究所,念Ph.D.出來的女性,有百分之十到將近百分之二十的女性拿到博士學位;但是後來會在前五十名的
大學成為終身職教授的女性卻不到百分之六。我們就在研究為什麼為這樣子,而且經過多年的努力還是沒有起色。最近我跟一位很有名的理論物理學家Wen, Xiao-Gang──他來自大
陸,現在在MIT 當正教授,是非常優秀的學者──談論到美國這個社會,照理說應該很開放,為什麼到最後真正成為正教授、終身職教授的女性會這麼少?後來我們想想,如果看生
物、化學方恩,女性教授人數還比較多。討論的結果,我們認為大概是這樣子:「首先,經過終身職這個過程時,通常是女孩子結婚、要有小孩的時候。美國最好學校的終
身職門檻非常非常艱難,人家說是cut-throat、殺頭的過程──其實看人啦,不過的確蠻艱難的。在那個情況下,不管是哪一個文化、哪一個種族,通常女性比較會對家庭多付出。如果
這個時候她們剛好要經過終身職門檻,有些人就會為了家庭放棄了教授的生涯,改到工業界或者是國家實驗室之類、到別的地方去做事,不會留在學校,這是其一。另外一點,比較不
同領域的話──我不是說哪個領域比較艱深,哪個比較簡單──但打個比方,妳今天如果是做生物實驗的,妳現在有些想法,要試驗某些東西,養這堆白老鼠、養那堆白老鼠,必須要
等一些時間才能有實驗數據。有一些想法要驗證的時候,妳並不是說無時無刻、投入所有時間,妳可以設計這些實驗,讓白老鼠接受不同實驗;中間當然要不斷地作紀錄,但妳也可以
找學生去做這些東西,於是會有一些空檔,並不需要百分之百腦力完全地投入。但是換言之,如果看物理的東西,很多東西花費的專註力、投入的程度,讓妳沒有辦法分心,妳一分
心妳就做不好。在這樣的情況下妳怎麼有小孩?如果妳專註在那邊做十幾個小時,小孩子餓了、小孩子發燒了,妳怎麼去處理這個事情?我們試著作一些理性分析,很可能是因為物理
界要求的專註程度非常高,所以女性會這麼少,這是一個現象。「又回過頭來講,女性少是有很大的缺點。常常有些人不知道怎麼跟女性相處。譬如說,第
一眼見到妳,如果不認得,就會想『啊,怎麼是這樣一個人要來討論東西? 』。現在情況已比較好。想當初我第一個job interview 到哈佛大學(Harvard University),由於我看起來很小、很
像大學生,雖然那時我已經拿到博士了。哈佛的物理系要interview 助理教授,那些教授看到我就已經傻掉,沒有想到我會長這個樣子,看起來那麼小、又是女性、特別是東方女性。在
那個環境下他們幾乎沒有接觸過這樣的物理學家,因此我一進他們辦公室,要跟他們恩談,他們第一個反應都是錯愕。真的,你看他們臉上的表情就是錯愕。但是一旦我坐下來跟他們
談物理,幾分鐘後就好了。「然而這種現象是有問題的,很多人就不知道怎麼跟女性相處。不過像我現在,大家都認得我,已經沒有什麼問題了。但剛開始很多事情
上真的會覺得不對,因為這個環境本身對女性不是很友善。通常不是說有人故意對女性不友善,而是平常在這領域沒有見到過女性,看到時都不知道該如何處理。我在Caltech 教書有一
個好處,由於我絕大部分的學生都是男孩子,他們已經很習慣看一個女教授教他們,而且罩得住(笑),自然地會習慣尊重女性,不會在看到女性時覺得錯愕,因為他們的教授就是女
性。這真的需要時間,需要大家比較openminded去想這個事情。
You mentioned before we talked that you had to be very careful with the 「women」 angle. I』d love to hear more about that — why do you think you have to be careful?
These issues are very important. However, there is an implicit assumption that any woman who achieves prominence in a male-dominated field will want to discuss them, rather than the actual thing that she does — which is very likely to be a lot more interesting. I almost didn』t do this interview, as you know. I』ve had a rewarding career, but also a rather unique set of experiences. It』s difficult to convey the subtleties involved in a short QA.
Plus, when women speak on controversial topics, the haters are almost invariably more vocal than those in agreement — which adds to the challenge of going ahead. But I recognize the importance of awareness of women in my field and I』ve had enough experiences now that some questions seem worth discussing — hopefully to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
In the simple process of asking me these other questions, it turns into a book by a woman physicist.
Here』s an example of what can go wrong: I recently appeared on the NPR show 「Wait Wait... Don』t Tell Me」 in the 「What』s My Job」 segment. I was truly excited to be a guest on the show, which I really like, and which would reach a great audience. I ran on adrenaline throughout the interview, which was full of challenging questions — I definitely had to duck some uncomfortable ones that I am pretty sure never would have been asked of one of my male colleagues.
But the conversation mostly was enjoyable, even though it broached some challenging topics. A few days later when the show aired, I saw the Twitter reactions and then listened to the heavily edited radio broadcast itself, which focused almost exclusively on the parts of the interview that make people squirm. I』m sure it wasn』t intentional.
Nonetheless, instead of remembering a good interview and some nice points about physics and science communication and my new book, Dark Matter and the Dinosaurs, what people took away were some uncomfortable questions about appearance. Here』s my 「Wait Wait」 interview with very light editing, which I give them a lot of credit for releasing. Here』s what aired. I have nothing against humor — but the edited version wasn』t funny. The focus on gender interfered with what could have been far more entertaining and interesting.
I go out of my way to talk about physics and not about myself in my books. I do leading research in my field and work very hard to write big sweeping overviews of contemporary science in a way that doesn』t talk down to people but is readable and enjoyable — even if sometimes challenging. But people don』t usually associate women with these activities, so they end up focusing on my being a woman who does physics while shortchanging the content no matter what I say — at least at first. This goes for reviewers as well as for interviewers. Only a very few talk about the books I actually wrote.
I』m super excited about what I』m discussing in Dark Matter and the Dinosaurs. It』s a book not only about my research on dark matter but about the universe, how it evolved, the nature of dark matter, the solar system, asteroids and comets and what hits the Earth, the development of life and the connection to the environment, as well as the destruction of life through mass extinctions.
In the simple process of asking me these other questions, it turns into a book by a woman physicist. Yes, I want everyone — girls and boys, men and women — to be interested in physics. And yes, I think my doing it helps people realize there are no prescribed boundaries. But no, I don』t think my talking explicitly about it necessarily adds to that interest. On an individual level I can probably change minds. But interviews in newspapers rarely do this.
You were the first female theoretical physicist tenured at Harvard. Can you talk about some of the challenges you faced to get to that position?
I aimed to do interesting and important research. I hope I』ve succeeded. Anything else I add about my experiences will be misunderstood or misinterpreted. Everyone faces challenges getting to tenure. Maybe the dress code was less clear (that is a joke).
How did you react when you heard Larry Summers』 comments suggesting that women are just not suited for science and mathematics?
I can』t believe that 10 years later I』m still being asked about Larry Summers』 comments. I am pretty sure no one is asking him about them. In case that answer isn』t clear or sounds dismissive, let me elaborate: When you ask me about Larry Summers』 comments, which aren』t really very interesting, it diminishes what I do, which I think is pretty important.
Physics is hard enough to explain. By taking time on these distractions you just make my job harder! We all advance a lot further by going beyond this.
Do you think things have changed in the sciences at Harvard since that comment, and the outrage it inspired?
Maybe they have. I haven』t noticed significant differences, unfortunately.
You and your sister are both renowned and influential in the sciences. Do you think your childhood had anything to do with that?
My sister and I grew up in a somewhat different context in the sense that when she is asked if there were other scientists in the family growing up, she says yes, and when I』m asked I say no (which she gets mad at me for). But she is four and a half years younger, so as a kid I didn』t grow up in a family of scientists and had to figure it out myself. Having said that, she is absolutely brilliant and now does mathematics, so don』t get me wrong.
I don』t have all the answers. I prefer simpler questions like figuring out the makeup of the universe.
But here is what is really interesting and is also totally unscientific. If you ask about the leading women in my field of theoretical particle physics, the same few names will frequently come up, such as Ann Nelson and Eva Silverstein, who — like me — have only sisters. I might be the only person who cares enough to know this fact even in my field.
I haven』t done a statistically significant study and like all such observations it』s not clear what constitutes the category. But few of the women I』ve asked have older brothers. I』m sure lots of people will yell at me and tell me all sorts of exceptions and they will probably be right. But I』m guessing nurture plays a significant role. Whatever the parents』 intentions, in families with no older boys, the girls are probably treated differently.
In Eileen Pollack』s recent book, The Only Woman in the Room, she talks about how isolated she felt in the physics department at Yale, and how she never received the academic support or encouragement of her male colleagues. Does this resonate with your experience at all?
This sort of thing certainly does still happen. Whether inadvertently or deliberately, people tend to support others like themselves. Women at universities therefore don』t always receive the same type of support that men do. And almost all women know they are more likely to be interrupted (and that when they do the interrupting it is far more obvious).
But there are measures of success beyond what your immediate colleagues say. Like people inviting you to speak on your research or referencing it. I was at one point the most cited theoretical physicist over a five-year period, which is incontrovertible proof that scientists are paying attention to my work — whether I received immediate encouragement or not.
So if you focus on the facts and not a few dismissive remarks, it』s pretty good actually. Yes, there are times you might feel isolated but there is also an entire community out there with similar interests, which is actually pretty wonderful. And many of my colleagues are great.
In an interview with the Smithsonian a few years ago, you said that gender imbalance in the sciences is 「part of a bigger issue about women in society and I think [the focus on science] is like trying to solve the problem of a dying tree by looking at a little tiny branch somewhere.」 Can you elaborate on that?
I find that a lot of the issues that concern me are issues I』ll talk about with women in completely different fields or occupations. There are so many assumptions built into the culture. It』s hard to know where to begin. My litmus test, when in doubt, is to translate the remark and replace woman with a minority group to the extent the remark makes sense and see whether we would be as forgiving.
For some reason women are supposed to laugh off offensive remarks and not admit they matter. The remarks are disturbing when addressed to minorities and they are disturbing when they are addressed to half the population. Yes, we can all have a sense of humor. But the jokes add up. And sadly often reflect more truth than people admit. (I』ve also gotten in trouble too for making jokes that reflect my true opinions more than I realized.)
Do your female students have concerns about entering a male-dominated field? And if so, what do you tell them?
I mostly tell them to take themselves seriously and do their best work. Worrying doesn』t necessarily get them far. I tell them if they are concerned they are not as good, look at the guy next to them and ask if they think they』re as good or better. If the answer is yes, they should go ahead if they want. Yes, they might face extra challenges but maybe that just makes them try harder. I don』t have all the answers. I prefer simpler questions like figuring out the makeup of the universe.
科研道路艱難,投入產出比低,作為女性,歧視有,傾斜也有,關鍵靠信念和興趣。關於對女博士在婚戀市場受到的偏見,若是女博士能讓人不覺得是女博士,一切問題迎刃而解。有點答非所問,有感而發而已。
很多人說女性的天職就是巴拉巴拉……這個說辭讓我覺得就像在說你生為女人,悲劇所在,不要掙扎,多去犧牲。
沒有人能夠證明在同等條件下,男人比女人聰明,我相信的是,物種的公平性,給予男人強壯的軀體還會給予他優越的智慧嗎?題主的數據應該是屬實的,那只是代表更多的女性去結婚生孩子了,這也是大環境的要求,誰也不能證明家庭主婦比那些科學家蠢啊!
查一下這些女科學家的單身比例,結果更驚人
我覺得對學術的熱情 對真理的追求可以蓋過那份不自信
個人認為 這是這個社會默認潛在的法則。正如每個行業都有自己的潛在規則,不一定合理,但的確大家都必須默認遵守。女性,到了一定年齡要結婚生子,要管家看娃,不要說這公不公平,但基本上還是中國家庭生活的常態,所以大量的時間就必然要花費在這上面了。所以很多女性也就註定會在事業方面有所影響。當然女性也不是沒有站在事業巔峰的,其原因我個人覺得無非兩個 一她足夠聰明,明確知道自己想要什麼,全心追求自己想要的 心無旁騖或者她能聰明地處理家庭與工作的關係,那她的確足夠睿智。二一個就是她的後方足夠給力,無論是配偶還是父母子女,既要理解她還要能夠配合她。而這二者都並非那麼容易擁有這種條件,不抬杠的講,社會的確對女性有更多的約束,無論是工作還是生活,別人總有不同的看法。我並不是說 這就意味著男人的壓力就小而是二者的要求方面是不同的,男人可能更偏重於事業,而女人更想十項全能 這是從封建社會就留下的思想殘餘。其實 我想說的是,有沒有玻璃天花板 並非那麼重要 ,只要你想 你的家人高興 做一個家庭主婦與事業女強人也沒什麼好壞之分,只是希望大家在看到光鮮的男人或女人的時候 也能理解他們背後的安靜的小男人 小女人,他們其實沒什麼不好,都同樣堂堂正正地走在人生的大道上。
已經確定直博的小透明看到比例還是嚇了一跳但求不忘初心
至少在美國理工科學術界,情況恰恰相反,女性(還有黑人)是有特別照顧的。從phd錄取到學術界找教職女性的門檻都明顯比男性低。
女性科學家少主要還是自我選擇的結果。大多數女性都不喜歡理科。從小我就幾乎沒見過有喜歡數學和物理的女生(有考得很高的,但這並不代表喜歡),自然後來選擇去讀相關專業的人就很少。
「女生和男生在科學領域的表現難分伯仲」這種說法太籠統。因為這種結論很可能只是基於考試成績之類的數據。我前面也說了,很多女生考得高,並不代表她們喜歡,大多數時候只是因為女生更細緻,也花更多時間在學習上。另外更重要的一點是,這種結論只能說明平均水平,男生的方差太大了,最差的和最好的往往都是男生(看看每年高中各項學科競賽就知道了。信息學競賽甚至因為女生太少,還專門規定了省隊必須有至少一名女生)。科學家最終都是各學科頂尖的人,和平均的那批人沒什麼關係。
有些工作女性多,有些工作男性多,都是男女差異導致的,和所謂玻璃天花板常常沒有什麼聯繫。高中讀文科的女生遠多於男生,師範類院校女生也往往比男生多很多,難道這能說明男生在這些行業和領域被限制?沒有,我感覺,都是心理暗示自己不行
一句話,女科學家本身不存在,而是人們在觀念上存在。不過正是因為這樣才更有挑戰性不是嗎?
都給喝雞湯,不說實話,避免立場不正確。看古往今來的歷史,現在頂尖科學家,當中有幾個女的?難道這還不清晰明了?
到了這一層次,智商是硬傷,事實是,可能社會上女孩子比男生更早熟,心智更成熟。在學習上,女的花的時間更多,學習更努力,更能坐的住,但是男的就玩心重。但是能夠成為博士科研人員那個不是人尖兒,早早明確自己想要的,不然不可能走到那一步。把大多數同齡人都擠下這條路。所謂的那一點可憐的優勢也蕩然無存。
另外,也許平均來說女人更聰明,但是,男人與男人的智商差距很大。從進化來看,女人是在男人的保護下照顧家庭,而男人則要出去面對社會的風風雨雨。經過幾十萬年的進化在各個方面都進化到能夠適應各自的角色。從這張圖可以看出來,有幾個女的?可能社會大多數行業有很多比男人厲害的女的。但是在科學領域,在真正需要拼智商的領域,數學和物理領域,女人是比不上男人的,男人可以說全面碾壓女人。我覺得,不管男人與男人還是男人和女人,人與人之間,有的時候,智商差距真的是拚命也無能為力的。獲得學位的比例不能說明女性科學家天花板的問題,女性獲得高學歷和高學位的比例小,有很多原因的,比如:女性的傳統的社會角色(妻子、母親,主婦)、一些地區重男輕女的落後教育理念、女性群體的平均智商、女性的社會心理特徵等
肯定有,大的咱也不明白,就說小事吧。有一個學醫的學姐考研的時候比同班的一個男生多考了幾分,報的同一個老師,但人家老師就要了男生。這能怎麼辦。
即將25歲的我,單身,且單了快25年,目前也沒有任何改變的軌跡! 中秋回家看望懷孕的朋友,朋友說我,你還不急啊! 急啥? 找對象啊! 家裡人傳統思想,說,女孩書讀的好不如嫁的好。 我回,所以說,現在房價這麼高,我在上海不吃不喝工作幾年也就買個廁所,都是你們這些丈母娘給逼的。
先說結論:外部條件並沒有天花板,只有樓梯。內部因素,就不好說了。
我在美國最好的大學(沒有之一)讀phd,老闆極其nice. 我們組學生男女比例比較平衡,學生的國籍也很diverse. 以上是背景。
先看有沒有天花板。導師年紀不大,我們組到現在畢業了三男兩女。三個男生都繼續academia 了,兩個女生一個畢業後在隔壁博物館工作(並不做研究),另一個耗了5 年決定拿碩士quit,回老家教中學了。把樣本擴大到其他系其他組,感覺也是女phd 更傾向於離開academia.
也許這個就是題主說的天花板。
為什麼有天花板?肯定不是外部因素。因為美國的政治正確,女性在academia 有很大的優勢。相信不少理科生申請grad school 時就聽說過這個笑話:女生相當於簡歷上多一篇publication. 在學術路上繼續走下去,作為女性的優勢更加明顯:比如找教職的時候,那個笑話基本屬實,甚至低估了其優勢。另外community 里,也有很多為女性提供各種幫助的組織,比如women in science. 也有專門提供給女性的funding.
至於內因,一定不是智商的差別:我認識很多非常出色的女教授,自嘆弗如。可能是因為女性更傾向於穩定的生活而自己選擇了離開academia? 畢竟混這條路不確定因素太多了。沒有
傳統觀念導致,只聽說過女強人,沒人說過男強人。也有笑話說,用男人,女人和女博士三種人來區分人類。可見一般人的固化思維在限制女性本身。
她們那麼優秀,卻一直被人潑冷水~
女哲學家絕對存在玻璃天花板
各行各業都有不同分工,很多時候男女並不平等
女科學家我不知道。但是當年作為魔獸世界某區某服某公會會長的我,當被我罵的那個盜賊開了麥道歉,我就知道,千言萬語總之是我錯了,務必要小心陪不是……
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