專訪| 加拿大應用技術與職業學院協會副主席談加拿大的學院教育

加拿大的大學（University）是精英教育，側重理論，如果希望從事律師、醫生、工程師等職業，如果追求名校，如果要繼續讀碩士讀博士，大學教育是必經之路； 加拿大的學院（College）是職業化教育，側重應用，如果是以就業為導向，如果希望儘快畢業，如果不介意做律師助理、工程師助理、X光技師等職位，學院可能是更好的選擇。為了讓大家更好的了解加拿大的學院教育體系，悠問專門採訪了Colleges and Institutes Canada （加拿大應用技術與職業學院協會）負責國際合作的副主席 (Vice President) Paul Brennan先生。

1.Could you please briefly introduce Colleges and Institutes Canada (CICan)?

問題一：你能簡要介紹一下加拿大應用技術與職業學院協會(CICan)嗎？

We』ve changed our name recently, and the Colleges and Institutes Canada used to be called 「the Association of Canadian Community Colleges (ACCC)」, and we』re not the same as US community colleges which are mostly associate degrees. The Canadian College Institute System was created as the alternative system to excellent universities to train people and educate people for jobs of tomorrow. Our focus is educating people to obtain jobs and to become better citizens. So we provide people with skills, knowledge and attitudes that allow them to obtain the employment.

我們協會最近改了名稱，之前叫「加拿大社區學院協會(ACCC)」，但由於我們協會的成員院校與提供associate degree（國內譯作副學位或副學士學位，一般是美國兩年制的社區大學 community college所提供的文憑）的美國社區大學有所區別，所以改名為「加拿大應用技術與職業學院協會(CICan)」。加拿大的（技術與職業）學院教育體系作為優質大學教育的補充，是以就業為導向來培養和教育學生。我們致力於培養學生各種職業技能，相關知識以及職業態度，讓他們輕鬆找到工作，成為更好的公民。（文末相關閱讀里有更多關於College的文章）

Our employment rate is on average over 90% and our graduates obtaining the jobs within 6 months and they are verified. There are 95% of employers are very satisfied, so that』s our real focus and strength. Why we obtain that is because we are close to employers of every level, employers on the provisional boards, international boards and college boards and we adjust our curriculum continuously. So we attain high level of employ ability, and we offer wide various options for everyone, like 「2-year program」, 「3-year program」 and 「4-year degrees」 which are more applied and even postgraduate certificate specialization and a few masters in system as well. So, it』s quite an academic system where the institutes are plugged into the community, industry and employers.

我們的畢業生基本都能在6個月以內找到工作，平均就業率超過90%。95%的用人單位對於我們的畢業生也感到滿意，這體現了我們真正的訴求與實力。我們與不同層次的用人單位有著緊密的聯繫，根據他們對人才的要求，我們會對課程設置進行調整。因此，我們的學生有如此高的就業率。我們為學生提供了不同的專業項目，有兩年、三年的職業培訓項目，也有四年的學位項目，比一般本科學位更具應用性，我們還有少量的碩士學位項目。所以，我們的教育體系是根植於社區、業界和用人單位的。

2. As you just said, those schools under the Colleges and Institutes Canada not only offer 2-year and 3-year training programs, but also the bachelors and master programs, right?

問題二：您剛才說到，CICan不僅提供2-3學年的培訓項目，而且還提供本科和碩士的教育項目，是嗎？

Yes, that distinguishes us as well. We have a quite number of institutes to offer degrees, but they still have to be very practical bachelor degrees, the same except as bachelor degree in Canada but the content will be more practical than traditional academic degree. We are probably equivalent to 1-year out of 4 years. We』ll arrange internships in various companies and learning on the job, so maybe three months every year, so that』s about a year experience for companies, so you are much about employable on that type of bachelor degree.

是的，這也是讓我們與眾不同的一點。我們協會有相當一批院校能提供學位，但與加拿大普通大學的學士學位(Bachelor Degree)相比，我們的學士學位會更偏實際運用些，兩者大概有1/4的學習內容是一樣的。我們會在很多不同公司里安排學生實習，每年大概三個月的時間，便於讓學生更好了解工作內容，所以學生四年畢業後，會有差不多一年的實習經歷，使得我們的本科學生更容易就業。

3. Lots of Chinese parents, not like the parents in Canada, might prefer their children go to university. What you think the differences between college and university in Canada?

問題三：很多中國學生的家長與加拿大的家長不同，他們更傾向自己的孩子進入大學讀書，請問你怎麼看待加拿大大學與學院的區別呢？

We got about 25% students going to colleges and 75% universities before, but now it』s 52%-53% go to college after high school graduation, and 47%-48% going to university. But we still have some unemployed university graduates, so I think we still need move further to match the job market.

加拿大以往的情況大概是有25%的學生選擇學院，75%的學生選擇大學，最新的數據則顯示有52%-53%的學生高中畢業後選擇學院，47%-48%選擇進入大學。儘管如此，仍有一些找不到工作的大學畢業生（同時，一些技術性的工作又招不到專業人才），所以，我認為我們還需要做很多事情來匹配就業市場的需求。

（文末相關閱讀里有更多關於學院與大學的比較）

The reality is that we moved away from the society that needed, university graduates are elites. Everybody is doing repetitive jobs in a country or in low level manufacturing, so you can find that universities are nothing. But new economy and new jobs are created in the middle area in many way. And they don』t need the theoretical university education, they need practical education that equips them with the ability to do things and to improve. So it really depends on what you want in your life and what you want to do. If you want to a digital animator and work for Disney or Pixel, you do that in college and you don』t do that in university. So it』s depends on what you want to do in life and which career you might be interested in. You may think the university is only way but it』s no longer the case. And that』s why many countries including China have to face that too many university graduates cannot find work but college technical graduates are not satisfied, and that』s most country need to undertake.

事實上，我們已偏離社會的真實需求，大學畢業生是按照精英模式在培養。很多人在鄉村和低端的製造業里從事重複性的工作，對於這些工作，大學可能並沒起到什麼作用。新的經濟增長點，新興的工作大多是以不同的方式產生於中間區域，它們需要從業者具備較高的教育程度，但是並非偏理論的大學教育，而更多地需要偏應用的教育，要能勝任工作。所以，關鍵還是要看自己究竟想要什麼，如果你想在迪斯尼或者Pixel（都是業內最頂級的）做一名數字動畫師（Digital Animator），那麼你在學院就可以學到，大學沒有這個專業。 而且我們的學生都找到了工作。大學並非唯一出路，關鍵是要明白自己感興趣的行業以及在哪可以學到這些知識。很多國家包括中國都面臨這樣的窘境，很多大學畢業生找不到工作，而市場所需要的專業技術人才卻很緊張，這些問題亟待解決。

4. Since we have lots of colleges in Canada, what』s the factors for people to consider to choose a college?

問題四：加拿大的學院很多，那該如何擇校呢？

We are a national association for 135 colleges polytechnics, all of our members can only be members, those are publicly founded and created by the Ministry of Education. It doesn』t mean all our funding are from the government and in fact less than half usually. We are very entrepreneurial, we do corporate training, adult education, but all of our institutions have quite similar quality and we don』t have the level 1, level 2 and level 3. So it really depends in what area you want to study, so if you want to do the aviation, then there will be about five institutions involve that, maybe you have special sector is interested that you could choose. Do you want to live in a big city which may be more expensive or you want to live in a middle size city outside big cities which is less expensive, perhaps more connect with people because the population is fewer, close to environment and nature and etc. So again, there are numbers of factors which influence your choice, but, whether small or big city, you can find high quality education.

我們是一個全國性的組織，我們協會成員包括135所加拿大公立學院。 雖然我們成員學院是由加拿大各省的省教育廳(Ministry of Education)資助和建立，但是，這不意味著我們所需要的資金全部來自省教育廳，事實上，我們有超過一般的資金都來自院校在公司培訓、成人教育等方面所獲得的收入。 協會中所有學院的教育水平比較均衡，沒有等級之分，所以選擇哪所學校完全取決於自己，如果你想從事飛機製造業，那麼就有五所院校可供選擇。另外，你需要考慮你是喜歡居住在生活成本昂貴的大城市還是生活成本較低的中等城市。在人口少的地區，人與人之間的交流可能反而會更多，周圍環境等也會與大城市不同。所以，做出選擇的時候要考慮多方因素，不過，無論你是選擇大城市還是小城市，你都可以獲得高質量的教育。

Our role is helping people to make choices, so you can see the websites on all the programs and we know what a group of people want. People don』t apply to us and they apply to the colleges, but if we know a group of hundreds of people want to do 「3+1 program aviation」, we could move to the right direction.

我們所扮演的角色就是幫助學生們做出選擇，你可以在我們協會的網站查看所有專業項目介紹，我們要了解學生的需求。學生不是向我們申請，而是向對應的院校申請，不過，如果我們了解到有很多學生都想學「3+1」的飛機製造項目，我們就會建議成員院校在專業設置上往這個方向傾斜。

5. Regarding of what you said about professional training of college levels, there are some particular areas only in college, right ?

問題五：您剛提到了學院的職業培訓，請問是否一些專業只有學院里才有？

Yes, there are many more applied areas, like digital animation or designing. Some universities are getting into it, but those programs are bigger firms in college system and our students now have their equivalent salary. Many others like paralegals are also the college level. Lawyers also need a number of people to support them and do the research. Or health system, we always talk about doctors and nurse, but there are other occupations in hospital like technologist taking your bloods or doing your x-rays or people will help you in hospital room or support you at home, all those are trained in colleges. So that』s another example what we be training there. In Canada engineering areas, most Canadian companies will hire 1 engineer and 5 or 6 engineer technologists, that』s the real balance because they need one to see the plan and 4 or 5 people to make the project happen. In most other countries, they will have one technologies and 4 or 5 engineers, it』s the engineer that do the technologies jobs and frustrated, and so again we train right people in the right job.

是的，我們應用方面的專業很多，比如數字動畫製作及設計等，雖然一些大學也開始開設這些專業，但學院里這些項目的規模更大，我們的畢業生目前也都拿到滿意的薪金。還有一些方向是在學院里才有的，如律師的專職助手（paralegals），律師是需要一些人來協助他們和做一些調研工作的。在健康醫療領域，除了大家熟悉的醫生和護士，其實，醫院裡還有很多其他職業，比如驗血師，X光片技師，以及一些在病房和家中照料患者的護工和理療師，他們實際上都是在學院里受訓的。在工程領域，很多加拿大公司都是聘用一名工程師和5、6名工程技師，這樣安排也是合理的，一名工程師負責整體計劃，其他人員則輔助完成計劃實施。但是，在很多國家，是一名技師配4、5個工程師，這樣導致工程師會做些技師的工作，工作起來也不是那麼開心(frustrated)。所以，又回到之前提過的，我們希望培養出來的學生，能在最適合他/她的崗位工作。

Last year, more Indian students came to the colleges comparing those went to universities in Canada, and we had 14,000 Indian students to our college system, and over half of them had university degrees in India but could not get hired, and they came here for one year postgraduate certification specialization. So they can come along for 1 year and can work for the next year.

去年，來加拿大的印度學生有所增多，進入學院就讀的印度學生人數達1.4萬人，而其中半數都是在印度拿到了大學學位卻未能找到工作。他們來加拿大，大多選擇讀一年的研究生文憑項目。所以，他們來我們這裡讀一年，第二年就能找到工作（短頻快的方式）。

It』s the education training system that adjust to the actual labor needs. Too many young people and parents say university is only the way to the success, but it is no longer true. It is pushing too many students to the university ignoring what they really want to do. It is coming out the employment, it is dead here and costs them a lot. College education is half price than the university one. These days US dollar rates, and 1 US dollar equals to about 1.34 Canadian dollar, so you can get high quality education with very low price in Canada.

教育體系會根據真實就業市場情況作出調整。很多年輕人以及他們的家長認為大學是成功的唯一途徑，這樣的觀念已不正確了。太多的孩子被「推著」進入大學，但是，大家卻往往忽視了他們真正想要的。等到畢業找工作時，大家發現就業形勢不好，同時，上大學花費也很高。讀學院的花費會比讀大學便宜一半，按照美元匯率來算，一美元大概是1.34加元，所以，在加拿大，是可以用較小的代價獲得高質量的教育。

6. It seems like the college students are easily find the job compared to university students, is that right?

問題六：似乎學院學生會比大學學生更容易找到工作，對嗎？

Yes, absolutely. Some people in their college days will discover what they want and decide whether they need the university education, so what we done is building the bridges or pathway from our colleges or polytechnics to traditional universities, so you don』t have to repeat what you』ve done. Sometimes the employer say some the best employees are both done college and university, it』s mixed practical and theoretical skills, it』s a nice mix.

是的，毋庸置疑。在學院學習的時候，學生可以思考和發現自己真正想要的，然後決定是否再去讀大學（轉學，或者畢業之後），而我們就是搭建這一橋樑，讓學生可以從職業學院進入到傳統的大學，避免走重複的路。一些僱主眼中最好的員工是既接受過大學的教育，也在學院學習過，既有理論又懂應用的複合型人才。

You want to be a lawyer, a doctor, or engineers, those occupations will acquire universities, so it』s not the question of one is better than the other, they are equal but different and it depends on what your child or young person wants to do in their life. Many of them do not know what they want to do, they are better to start in college and learn some skills. At some point, you know what you want to learn from universities, you could go to universities then you will be succeed.

如果你想成為律師、醫生或工程師，你需要選擇讀大學，所以，問題不是學院和大學哪個更好，兩者是平等而有差異的，如何做選擇取決於學生自己以後想要什麼樣的生活。很多年輕人一開始並不知道他們以後想做什麼，他們可以選擇從學院開始學習一些技能。也許經過一段時間，他們會覺得需要在大學學習更多理論知識，這樣他們進入大學之後也更容易成功。

7.Today more and more international students come to Canada, do they have limits to apply any majors? I know some colleges are public founded, and they may guarantee Canadian citizens』 seats first, is that true?

問題七：越來越多的國際留學生來到加拿大，那麼他們在選擇專業的時候是否有限制？學院是公立的，所以必須優先保證加拿大當地學生的人數，請問是這樣嗎？

We』re created to serve Canadians, if the programs like the digital animation, there are certain numbers for international students and you have to check that out. Generally, we are very entrepreneurial and the industry is growing, other colleges will set up programs as well. Before, only Sheridan has the program, now Humber has, Algonquin has a program. It』s regulates itself, and when you apply, you should ask those questions like 「Can I get in?」. In the health area, something is difficult. If you want to be a nurse, you need to wait for Canadians get in firstly, so you may have to wait for years.

學院的創立就是服務加拿大人民（因為資金很多是來自於加拿大納稅人），一些專業項目比如數字動畫製作，會對國際留學生的錄取人數有所限制，所以申請人在申請前最好要了解清楚。如果行業對於某一個專業的需求在增長，就會有更多學院開設相應的專業。比如，以前加拿大只有謝爾丹學院（Sheridan）有動畫專業，現在漢博學院，亞崗昆學院都有開設這個專業，來滿足大家對動畫學習的需要。在申請某個專業的時候，要詢問「我的條件是不是達到錄取的要求」。在健康醫療領域，情況會有所不同，如果你想成為一名護士，學校通常會優先錄取加拿大當地的申請人（加拿大現在緊缺護士），所以申請可能需要等幾年。

We find that the major problem of Chinese students coming here is their low level English, so some joint programs with China, one of the key things is improving teaching English at Year One at post-secondary. We will send Canadian teachers to train the trainers in English language or French language. If they haven』t learned English well, it will be more difficult to get TOEFL 550 or IELTS 5.5. Even some people passed the exam like TOEFL or IELTS, they still have the challenges, particular the listening and speaking capacity. In Canada, you may have the problems to engage in active Canadian classrooms with weaken English listening. So you have to start early and have some native speakers teaching. We are working with China now to let some ESL teachers from Canada to teach six months or a year in China.

我們發現中國學生最大的問題是實際的英語水平比較低。因此，我們與中國共同開展的項目也是以提高英語教學水平為主，我們會安排加拿大的老師過去培訓英語和法語教學。學生如果英語水平不行，就很難拿到托福550分或雅思5.5以上，而且，一些學生即使通過托福或雅思，但是聽力與口語仍然是短板，在來到加拿大後，薄弱的英語聽力也很難讓他們積极參与到課堂中來。因此，這些學生需要提高學習，需要英語母語的人來教學。我們現在正在和中國相關方面合作，可以讓我們的英語老師在中國教6個月或者1年來幫助那些想來加拿大的學生。