酒廠|對話太平洋板塊：如何對抗整合？Interview with Pacific Plate Brewing Co（下）

Interview With Pacific Plate Brewing Co.在線收聽_mp3下載

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縮寫：SZ=作者和採訪人Sean Zhang張惟一，SK=史蒂芬酷仙，JP=強納森帕拉達

SZ=Sean Zhang, SK=Stephen Kooshian, JP=Jonathan Parada

關於啤酒業內人士 About Beer Snobs

SZ:nTo me a lot of the Chinese craft beer drinkers are turning into beer snobs,nwhat』s your take on that?

SZ：在我看來，很多中國的精釀啤酒愛好者開始變成啤酒「內行」了。你們怎麼看？

SK:nI think that』s definitely a world-wide phenomenon. We have the same experiencenhere in America with certain beer drinkers. I think craft beer is a lot likenfashion for a lot of people. You express yourself with what you drink. Or younmade your loyalty to certain brand or to a certain style. But I encourageneverybody out there to try something new, try something different, trynsomething you wouldn』t normally try. I force myself too all the time. buy anbeer, drink a beer that I wouldn』t normally drink, just to broaden my horizon,nand that will make you a more well-rounded craft beer drinker. I think it』s oknfor people to drink 12 percent bourbon barrel aged stouts. it』s great, it』sngreat for the attention that』s being paid to craft beer, but I just hope peoplencan get out that and expand their horizon.

SK：我覺得這是在世界範圍內的一個現象。我們在美國這也遇到了類似的精釀愛好者。我覺得精釀啤酒對很多人來說有點像一種時尚。你通過你喝什麼酒來表達你是個什麼樣的人。或者說你對某個牌子、某個款式的啤酒是死忠。但是我鼓勵大家去試試新玩意，試試不一樣的東西，試試一般你們不會去試的啤酒。我也強迫自己這麼干。買個我一般不會喝的啤酒來喝，就是為了讓我長長見識，而且那也能讓你變成一個更全面的精釀啤酒愛好者。我覺得如果人非要喝12度的過波本桶世濤是好事。這對於釀酒人的時間和工作是種肯定，但是我也希望人們能更多的嘗試新鮮事物。

JP:nI agree 100%. But also remember people』s palates change

JP：我百分百同意。不過大家要記住，人們的味蕾是會變的。

JP：just like any industry where there』s subjective tastes, like you saidnfashion. You』re gonna have people that will act a certain way. You will havenpeople act snobbish and call themselves connoisseur, experts, and then you willnhave a whole other range of people. I』m not surprised to hear that you arenexperiencing that. But I』m pretty positive that if they do as Kooshian said, trynsomething new every once in while, they will come around.

JP：就像很多的其他行業一樣，大家的品味會變。比如你說時尚就是。總會有一部分人表現得那個德行，有人表現得很內行，然後管自己叫品酒師啊、專家什麼的。但是你也有更多的其他一部分人。我聽你說這個我不奇怪，但是我想如果他們能做到像酷仙說的那種，偶爾試試新啤酒，他們會變的。

SZ:nI am just brought that up as a topic to discuss, because I have met a lot ofnpeople they are like 「oh I don』t drink IPA anymore because that』s notnfashionable or trendy」. But for me that』s what brought me to the craft beernworld, the Stone IPA. And the first sip I took I almost spit it out because itnis too damn bitter.

SZ：我就把這個單拿出來說因為我遇到了一大幫人說「噢勞資不喝IPA了因為IPA不潮了「。不過對於我來說，IPA是我進入精釀的領路酒，石頭IPA……第一口我喝了我差點噴出去因為太尼瑪苦了。

SK:nIt is still pretty damn bitter.

SK：現在那也還特特么苦

SZ:nLike you said, my palates changed.

SZ：你們不是說了么，我味蕾變了。

關於大魚吃小魚 About Big Corporations Buying Binge

SZ:nOk I want to get into more serious topic now. The owner of first craft beernbrewery in China. Master Gao wrote an article criticizing the current trend ofnbig players buying out all the small craft breweries, that』s called 「CraftynBeers Get the Fuck out of China」. I don』t know if you guys have experiencednsimilar things in the U.S. But I know in last year, a lot of craft breweriesnwere bought by the big players like InBev, Miller and Constellation. BluenPoint, Elysian, 10 Barrel, Golden Road, Brecken Ridge, Four Peak were allnbought by InBev. So what』s your guys take on this. Do you sense a threat fromnthis?

SZ：現在我要說點嚴肅的了。中國第一家精釀酒廠的老闆高大師寫了個文章抨擊現在的啤酒寡頭瘋狂收購小精釀酒廠的事，那文章叫「高岩 | 讓偽精釀滾出中國」。我不知道你們在美國是不是遇到了相同的境遇，但是我知道就去年一年很多精釀酒廠都被三大巨頭：百威、米勒和星座給收購了。 Blue Point, Elysian, 10 Barrel, Golden Road, Brecken Ridge, Four Peak 都讓百威給買了。你們怎麼想？你們感受到威脅了嗎？

SK:nI think there』s always been the looming idea that this is gonna happen soonernor later. It just happened too soon. 2015 was definitely the year of the buyouts,nthat is the year that craft beer 『sold out』 as they were labeled now. And Inthink what it proves is that the craft beer revolution was a great success.nLooking at it from a positive perspective, it shows that it』s becoming anmulti-billion dollar world wide industry, and the big players, the bignWall-Street guys, stock brokers, the huge corporations they wanna piece of thenpie now. Because it』s taking from their sales. Because they see that it』snprofitable.

I think it』s part of the bigger global fight, honestly, againstncorporatism. As individuals, we can choose to support independent businessnwhether it』s a brewery, a restaurant, a clothing line, and stay away fromnthings that are corporate. Because this is just another arm of the globalncorporate monster reaching in and taking something that』s home grown,ngrassroots, that』s build by the people. And then stealing it, marking it, andntrying to make millions of dollars off of it.

It』s up to the individualnconsumer to be informed and find out who got bought out. And make that choice.nAnd say I』m not gonna drink that beer from somebody who』s being bought out. Ifneverybody did it, they go out of business tomorrow. If everybody stop drinkingnthe beer from big corporation, from ABInBev, from SABMiller, from Heineken.nThey would go out of business tomorrow.

SK：我感覺其實這事我們大家都覺得一直會發生，只不過是早晚而已。但是確實發生得太快了。2015年就是一個收購年，那些被收購的精釀啤酒被人稱為「釀奸」了現在。我覺得這其實是證明了精釀啤酒的革命是非常成功的。你要是從積極的一面看問題，這就反映了這行業已經成了價值數十億美金的全球範圍的這麼一個買賣了。那些大牛、華爾街的人、券商、大企業都想要分一杯羹。因為咱已經搶了他的銷售額，而他們也看到了這是有利可圖的。

我覺得這是全球對抗企業化鬥爭的一部分。作為個體，我們可以選擇去支持獨立釀酒廠、低腰褲餐廳或者是個獨立衣服品牌。並且我們要躲開企業化的東西。現在精釀這個事就是大企業把他們的魔爪伸向另一個本土的、草根的、人民自己親手建立起的買賣的情況。然後他們不管是巧取豪奪、坑蒙拐騙也好，最終目的就是掙錢。

那這就得靠消費者個人來多獲取信息，然後搞清楚哪個酒廠被併購了。然後你再做選擇，說老子就不喝你這被併購的酒廠的酒了。如果大家都這麼做，他們明天就倒閉。如果大家都不喝大企業比如百威、米雷、喜力的就，他們明天就得給我關張。

SZ:nI stopped buying Ballast Point. Once I figured out they were sold tonConstellation for 1B. They do make really great beer. But…

SZ：自從Ballast Point出售給星座酒業後，我就沒再買過Ballast Point的酒。他們釀的酒真好，但是……

JP:nBecause of this really bold move, by these larger corporate breweries, there』snnow a huge political movement from within these brewer』s associations that arenfurther bringing our voice to the Capital Hill. We are part of the CalifornianCraft Brewer』s Association, which has people up the Capital Hill working for usnevery day. To make sure that foreign and larger interests such as ABInbev andnMillerCoolers don』t push us out of the legislative process. This is all resultnof free market enterprise.

But because we now have membership in these greatnassociations. Nationally, the BA, and the CBA. We now have a kind of a unifiednvoice of the legislative voice that didn』t exist 20 years ago. That definitelynbrought a huge amount of attention to the industry and we are fighting back. Sonwe are doing what we can.

JP：就因為這些大企業的大手筆，現在我們釀酒師協會也有了應對的政治措施，我們已經把我們的聲音帶到國會山去了。我們是加州精釀協會的一份子，我們有人在國會幫我們遊說。他們在確保國外和巨大的啤酒企業不會背著我們就把法律定了。這都是自由市場的結果。

但是就因為我們現在是這些協會的一員，在國家層面上來說我們有釀酒師協會，在州上面我們有加州精釀協會。我們現在擰成了一股繩，20年前這根本就沒有可能。現在這位我們這個行業帶來了很多的關注，我們也開始反擊了。我們就做我們能做的。

JP:nIt』s not necessarily that we are ourselves are gonna be the ones that competenwith big corporate entities. That goes back to what I was talking about withnour national association, and state-wide association. We go to thosenconferences and we talk about what』s happening from top to bottom. As long asncraft breweries do the best to stand together, make great beer all the time.nAnd just inform every person that comes in, as to the benefit of going with thencraft brewery. (39:56) Then I think we are going to be successful.

JP：其實我們自己本身不是去正面參與這個戰鬥的人，就像我說的我們有我們國家級、州際的協會。我們去參與峰會的時候也會把各個層面的事情反映一下。只要精釀酒廠都儘力保持統一戰線，一直做好喝的啤酒，並且儘力告知每位顧客去精釀酒廠有什麼好處，我覺得我們會成功的。

精釀啤酒和大廠比有什麼優劣？About the Advantages and Disadvantages of Craft Beer

SZ:nWhat sort of an advantage do you think do you have in terms of developing goodntasting beers, after all the big players do have unlimited funding.

SZ：你覺得精釀酒廠在研發好喝啤酒上，有什麼優勢？畢竟那些大廠有花不完的經費。

SK:nThe biggest advantage that we have as independent craft brewers is that ournhands are not tied by metrics and numbers and reports. We get to brew amazingntasting beers with incredibly unique ingredients that would so expensive fornone of the big brewers to get their hands on rather than just use an artificialnflavoring to emulate it.

SK：我們作為獨立精釀酒廠最大的優勢就是我們不受指標、數據、和報告的限制。我們可以用最獨特的原料釀最牛逼好喝的啤酒。那原料可能會貴到大酒廠無法巨量生產，所以他們有時只能用人工調味來模擬口感。

SZ:nI remember you told me when you were doing this coffee stout, you had itnshipped from NY freshly roasted.

SZ：我記得你跟我說過你做的一個咖啡世濤，你是讓供應商從紐約烤好直接空運的。

SK:nafter it was shipped from Oaxaca. It was a very short amount of time fromnharvest to roast to here. You would have incredibly fresh brewed coffee fromnOaxaca to here. And that』s exactly what I』m talking about. You see a beer likenBluemoon, that last year came out with a horchata ale. And Bluemoon』s horchatanale is meant to compete in the Latin America market, which is a lot of beernthat we are doing. But how did that make this beer? Did they use real cinnamon?nDid they use real anything? Or is it just a Frankenstein of artificial flavorsnand sweeteners.

So the biggest advantage that we have is that the real, trueningredients are used in our beer. It』s first of all, barley, hops, water, andnyeast. That』s what great beers start with, that』s the purest beer you can getnthere』s no addictive, there』s no enzymes, there』s no any type of syntheticnpowders or things that people at bigger breweries would use to manipulate thenbeer. And then after that, all the flavorings we use are real ingredients. RealnMexican cinnamon, real Ecuadorian cocoa, real vanilla, roasted chocolate fromnOaxaca. That is what the craft drinkers want. They want to go to the localnbrewery, they want the freshest beer possible. Not to buy some shelf turd, notnsomething that who knows which warehouse it sat in and what ingredients itnused. That』s the biggest advantage we have. It』s the quality. And, thenlocality.

SK：在咖啡豆從墨西哥瓦哈卡運過來後，從收穫到烘焙，到我的酒廠只經過了極短的時間。那你就能有超級新鮮釀造的咖啡從瓦哈卡到這裡。我就是這個意思。比如你看藍月亮Bluemoon那個酒，他去年也出了一款歐恰塔艾爾。而且他是要在拉美市場里競爭的，也就是我們的專攻市場。但是你知道他們怎麼釀的么？他們用真的桂皮了么？他們用的任何玩意是真的嗎？或者這只是跟造科學怪人一樣的用人工調味料和甜味素弄出來的？

所以我們最大的優勢就是我們的啤酒用的是真材實料。首先，好啤酒就四個要素，麥芽酒花酵母和水。用這四樣釀的酒最純粹，無添加，沒催化劑、沒任何那些大酒廠的人用來勾兌啤酒的人工合成的粉啊或者其他鬼知道什麼玩意。然後呢，我們的調味也都是用的真的原料。原裝墨西哥桂皮，原裝厄瓜多可可，真香草，瓦哈卡來的烘培咖啡豆。這就是精釀愛好者所想要的。他們想去本地的釀酒廠，他們想要最新鮮的啤酒。別買在貨架上趴了好久的酒，鬼知道那些玩意在哪個倉庫里扔了多久了，以及你也不知道他拿什麼釀出來的。這就是我們最大的優勢了。質量，和本土，是我們的優勢。

Thenbiggest disadvantage, it』s just the sheer power that these guys have. Thenmarketing power, the ability to just scoop up a brewery, buy out a brewery, tonsteal a brand, or rip off somebody』s recipe.

最大的劣勢，就是這幫孫子法力無邊。他們有市場話語權、他們有能力給小酒廠連鍋端了，買了，直接把品牌據為己有，或者乾脆直接盜用別人的配方。

SZ:nThat』s something I wanted to ask. Let』s say InBev comes to you and say yournhorchata recipe is infringing on their recipe. Let』s go to the court.

SZ：我還想說呢，如果百威過來找你們說你們的歐恰塔配方侵權了，來來咱們打官司。

SK:nIt』s happened to a lot of the other breweries. They sued them to death.

SK：這發生在其他人身上過，直接給小酒廠告死了。

SZ:nIt doesn』t matter whether or not you did. The sheer amount of legal fees wouldnjust inundate you to death.

SZ：這根本就不在於你到底盜用沒有，光律師費就淹死你們。

JP: One of thenbiggest craft breweries, Dogfish Head, had a Pun』kin Ale. Not Pumpkin the fullnword. It』s nice it』s funny. And I think Miller or AB, they tried to sue himnsaying that name is too generic. And it』s good that they went after him (SamnCalagione) because he had the ability to answer and he argued. And he saidn『really, you called a beer 「natural ice」, 「natural light」. How is that not morengeneric than Pun』Kin Ale???』 So I don』t remember what the ending result was.nBut my feeling is that everybody is already angry at the tactic AB/Miller isntaking.

JP：有個最大的精釀酒廠，狗魚頭，有一款男瓜艾爾（Punkin Ale）。不是南瓜哦是男瓜。名字起的很有趣。然後我忘了是米勒還是百威了，他們試圖告狗魚頭說他這個名字太常見了。我覺得他們告他（Sam Calagione狗魚頭老闆）是個好事，因為他有能力回擊。他說「搞毛？你們管你們丫自己啤酒叫「自然冰」，「自然光」，你跟我說說我這男瓜艾爾怎麼就比你那還常見了？？」。我不記得最後怎麼解決了，反正我覺得他們這操行已經觸犯了眾怒。

So this is a much less advertised way to buy out a craft beer and then bolster that brand, is less egregious to consumer, who likes that brand then say someone who loves Dogfish Head, but sometimes get that thirty racks of Keystone for the party, and then to say oh Keystone is trying to sue my favorite brewery. Screw that company. That pisses more people off.

總之這就是比起併購小酒廠然後把他做大來說來說，大企業比較不為人知的另一種手段。如果有人正好喜歡狗魚頭，同時也買量產啤酒的喝的話，當他們發現大企業正在跟你鍾愛的酒廠為了這個事打官司，你應該也說去他媽的傻逼公司。這種行為會讓更多的人很搓火。

Nownwhether or not they will never do that again, I can』t say. I think they knownthat they have to go after someone with deep pockets. Right now, the majoritynof breweries don』t have deep pockets. It』s like almost a moot point, they mightnbe able to shut a tiny brewery like us down, but they all have the cost too.

以後他們還敢不敢這麼干，我不知道。但是我知道他們必須要搞一些有錢的酒廠才划算。現在大部分的酒廠都沒那麼多錢。現在這就有點像雞肋，他們也許能給我們小酒廠搞倒了，但是他也得花錢。

SZ:nIm gonna make an inappropriate comparison: it almost feels like you guys arenthe urban guerrillas against the government entity.

SZ：我打個不恰當的比方，你們這就跟游擊隊反政府軍一樣。

SK:nYeah. It is essential what it is. It』s not only in this industry. Thisnindustry』s got a lot of attention because of this was an industry that built bynthe guys brewing beers in their garage and now you see how these hugenconglomerate, globalized corporations are trying to commandeer and steal it fromnthe creators. I think it』 just one of the downsides of modern day capitalism.

SK：對，其實就是。其實不只是我們這個行業，但是只是因為我們這個行業吸引了很多眼球，我們本來就是一個家釀愛好者在自己家車庫釀酒起家的。但是你現在看見巨無霸寡頭、全球性企業都試圖來佔領這片市場，把市場從創造這行業的人手中奪走。我覺得這就是現代資本主義的一個負面效果。

SZ:nWe just can』t have any good things can we.

SZ：我們就不能有什麼好事么，操的叻。

JP:nAnd it』s a double edge sword, it』s gonna take legislation time to catch up withnthe speed that this free market is happening at. But I am confident that withnour voices as craft beer brewers through our various associations, and withnanti-trust laws, that has been in place for many years. I think they』ll be ablento catch up and more than likely they』ll have to sell off a lot of theirnassets. Many of these acquisitions may not even last. So we』ll just have tonwait and see, and keep supporting craft breweries across the nation, and heck,nin China as well. And just make sure that you are informed as to what it is younare buying and why you are buying it.

JP：這是一把雙刃劍，定法律的人需要時間來適應自由市場的發展。但是我相信我們精釀從業者的聲音會通過我們的協會讓人聽到。另外反壟斷法不是一直在那嗎。我覺得如果反壟斷髮展得好，有一天那些大企業可能會被迫分割他們的資產。那些併購就持續不下去了。所以我們最好是靜觀其變，然後最重要的是我們要持續支持小精釀酒廠，包括中國的那些。大家要確保自己吸取了足夠的信息，知道自己買的是什麼，為什麼要買他。

給中國精釀愛好者的話 Things to Say For Chinese Craft Beer Lovers

SZ:nDo you have anything to say to Chinese craft beer lovers?

SZ：你們給中國的精釀愛好者說幾句？

SK:nWe want to encourage you guys to continue to drink local, find that local craftnbreweries that are indecently owned one that are close to you, and support it.nAnd definitely drink American craft beer if you can get your hands on those outnthere.

SK：我希望你們繼續喝本地啤酒，找到離你近的本地獨立精釀酒廠然後支持人家。最好多喝美國精釀啤酒如果你能買得到的話。

JP:nIf you are able to, try your hands on home brewing. There are a lot ofnliterature out there you can just read about. And That』s how we started. Talknto your homebrew shop owner. Education is power.

JP：如果可以的話，試試家釀。有很多家釀的書籍可以買。我們就這麼起家的。跟你們的家釀商店的老闆聊聊去。知識就是力量。

（完，以上嘉賓觀點不代表作者觀點，作者正在看著你）

（FIN）