鵝媽媽童謠的現代意義是什麼？

01-20

我指的是比較黑暗的，比如誰殺了知更鳥，麗茲玻頓，我的媽媽殺了我。現代意義是什麼？

我看到有人在問這個了!!

冷知識終於可以說了!!我憋了好久!!

關於鵝媽媽我們首先來理清幾個問題:

鵝媽媽童謠vs黑童話

鵝媽媽應該是童謠,是給小朋友唱的歌,童話是故事,比較長,不能唱,所以在下將對原問題的回答改為鵝媽媽的黑童謠.
鵝媽媽是一個作者嗎?
鵝媽媽是翻譯過來的,英國的童謠叫做 nursery rhymes 而鵝媽媽( Mother Goose )是指英國鄉村婦女,美國人就叫童謠mother goose.而童謠的年代很久遠, 現在有很多本Mother Goose童謠( 我認為最早的就是18世紀的,在那之後出現的就認為是後來再出現的啦 ).至於baidu百科( 其實這頁百科寫得不錯只是有一點點錯鵝媽媽童謠版本不唯一英文出版物裡面有很多不同年代不同編者的,有些童謠被改編出很多版本額~還有別的問題就看下面啦 )裡面的那張The Real Mother Goose 電子書請戳,這本書就是一般我們看到的鵝媽媽了,不過這本其實是1916年才出版的.
鵝媽媽=黑童謠?
不知道什麼時候開始網路上開始有很多鵝媽媽童謠的相關搜索項,然後只有一些看起來比較黑暗的童謠.這絕對是斷章取義啊.既然我們在研究的是外國童謠,那麼我們就應該去問外國人而不是問中國人,所以我們應該在英文網頁上找答案( 請戳上面幾個鏈接 ).鵝媽媽童謠是非常非常多的,童謠裡面的故事也是形形色色各種各樣的,但是童謠裡面的內容大體都非常可愛啊~雖然也有比較黑暗的,但是也不是像中文聽起來那樣啦,中國人跟老外觀念不同,笑點也不同啦,

然後來看幾條網路上搜索的比較多的吧~(說得這麼輕鬆愉快讓你們完全感覺不到我是看了 (大概起碼) 7、8個鐘啦~所以快給我點個贊啦 )

My mother has killed me
My mother has killed me
My father is eating me,
My brothers and sisters sit under the table,

Picking up my bones,
And they bury them under the cold marble stones.
baidu搜索裡面出現的以及很多人在動畫裡面聽過的,我完全沒有在英文網頁里看到. 我不知道它的具體來源到底是什麼,但是應該不是鵝媽媽里出現的.

Who killed Cock Robin?:Cock Robin
Who killed Cock Robin?
I,said the Sparrow,
With my bow and arrow,
I killed Cock Robin.
Who saw him die?
I,said the Fly.

With my little eye,
I saw him die.
Who caught his blood?
I,said the Fish,
With my little dish,
I caught his blood.
Who"ll make his shroud?
I,said the Beetle,
With my thread and needle,
I"ll make the shroud.

Who"ll dig his grave?
I,said the Owl,
With my pick and shovel,
I"ll dig his grave.
Who"ll be the parson?
I,said the Rook,
With my little book,
I"ll be the parson.
Who"ll be the clerk?
I,said the Lark,

If it"s not in the dark,
I"ll be the clerk.
Who"ll carry the link?
I,said the Linnet,
I"ll fetch it in a minute,
I"ll carry the link.
Who"ll be chief mourner?
I,said the Dove,
I mourn for my love,
I"ll be chief mourner.

Who"ll carry the coffin?
I,said the Kite,
If it"s not through the night,
I"ll carry the coffin.
Who"ll bear the pall?
We,said the Wren,
Both the cock and the hen,
We"ll bear the pall.
Who"ll sing a psalm?
I,said the Thrush,

As she sat on a bush,
I"ll sing a psalm.
Who"ll toll the bell?
I,said the Bull,
Because I can pull,
So Cock Robin,farewell.
All the birds of the air
Fell a-sighing and a-sobbing,
When they heard the bell toll
For poor Cock Robin.

NOTICE
To all it concerns,
This notice apprises,
The Sparrow"s for trial,
At next bird assizes.
這是baidu百科上的版本實際上是沒有最後的NOTICE的,而且這也不是鵝媽媽,這是 Tommy Thumb"s Pretty Song Book 上的所以不是鵝媽媽刪除了這部分內容,是本來就沒有記,雖然年代跟比較早期的鵝媽媽是一樣的(18世紀) 但是其實這首童謠是更早期出現的(16世紀),只是到了1744年才有正式出版物寫下.
Ten little nigger boys went out to dine:Ten Little Indians
Ten little nigger boys went out to dine;
One choked his little self,and then there were nine.
Nine little nigger boys sat up very late;

One overslept himself,and then there were eight.
Eight little nigger boys travelling in Devon;
One said he"d stay there,and then there were seven.
Seven little nigger boys chopping up sticks;
One chopped himself in half,and then there were six.
Six little nigger boys playing with a hive;
A bumble-bee stung one,and then there were five.
Five little nigger boys going in for law;
One got in chancery,and then there were four.
Four little nigger boys going out to sea;
A red herring swallowed one,and then there were three.
Three little nigger boys walking in the Zoo;
A big bear bugged one,and then there were two.
Two little nigger boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up,and then there was one.
One little nigger boy living all alone;
He went and hanged himself,and then there were none.
這個這個也不是鵝媽媽,而且原本的童謠是這個樣子的:
One little, two little, three little Indians
Four little, five little, six little Indians
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians
Ten little Indian boys.
Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians
Seven little, six little, five little Indians
Four little, three little, two little Indians
One little Indian boy
到了19世紀開始出現上上面的黑暗改寫版,這是被改編成了小說才成了這個樣子.
Lizzie Borden took an axe:Lizzie Borden
Lizzie Borden took an axe,
and gave her mother forty whacks.
When she saw what she had done,
she gave her father forty-one.
這個也不是鵝媽媽,是19世紀才發生的一宗慘案( 一個女人的父母被砍死了,但是女人並沒有被當作兇手抓起來,當時的陪審團認為她不是兇手 ),然後它是skipping-rope rhyme,就是發生了一件很轟動的事情,然後小朋友跳繩的時候就唱出來.( 就是白鬍子~白鬍子~鬼一樣可怕~~一樣的... )
There was a crooked man:There Was a Crooked Man
There was a crooked man,and he walked a crooked mile,
He found a crooked sixpence against a crooked stile;
He bought a crooked cat,which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together in a little crooked house.
19世紀才被記錄在出版物上,到了20世紀才流行起來的.大概就是講一個傻傻的男子的滑稽形象,我們覺得很殘忍,其實老外應該就是看卓別林的感覺吧,很無奈可是很滑稽啊,所以小朋友也會覺得很滑稽很搞笑.
Three blind mice:Three Blind Mice
Three blind mice! See how they run!
They all ran after the farmer"s wife,
Who cut off their tails with a carving knife.
Did you ever see such a thing in your life
As three blind mice!
17世紀時原來的歌謠如下,
Three Blinde Mice,
Three Blinde Mice,
Dame Iulian,
Dame Iulian,
the Miller and his merry olde Wife,
she scrapte her tripe licke thou the knife.
然後我覺得它被說成是黑童謠根本就是19世紀之後的人根據這個寫了小說拍了電影之後腦補出來的.
Sing A Song of Sixpence:Sing a Song of Sixpence
Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye;
Four-and-twenty blackbirds
Baked in a pie!
When the pie was opened
The birds began to sing;
Was not that a dainty dish
To set before the king?
The king was in his counting-house,
Counting out his money;
The queen was in the parlor,
Eating bread and honey.
The maid was in the garden,
Hanging out the clothes;
When down came a blackbird
And snapped off her nose.
鵝媽媽里沒有刪除啊,它還在哦,不過沒有什麼確切的事件或者來源.

我終於把這個看得我很糾結的東西說完了,其實沒有什麼說給孩子聽的歐洲黑童話,比較黑暗的一些根本就不是要給孩子睡覺聽的,後人改編成小說和電影的也很多,讓這些童謠增加了很多娛樂性的說法.

其實就是像貓和老鼠還有米奇老鼠一樣的一些小故事,比較滑稽,有些有一點點教育意義,中國人把英文翻譯成中文,整個小故事就變了味.

不要黑化歐洲童話童謠了啦~黑化的是成年人,所以原問題的現代意義什麼的,其實就是哄小朋友睡覺的童謠而已( 有一些是小朋友在玩的時候唱得童謠,跳繩啊什麼的 ),也不是什麼鬼怪傳說.真要說可以旁敲一下當時的社會環境研究人文歷史什麼的話...也可以啦~

資料都盡量提供鏈接了,因為鵝媽媽童謠故事是來自英國的( 其實德國和法國也參和了很多腳 ),所以其實所有的資料都是來源英文wiki.( 如果有興趣的話來跟我討論吧~~我非常喜歡這些古老的童謠和童話故事~~我有很多電子書的網址喲~ )其實並不難找,只是網路上的搜索結果都是用中文在中文網站上搜索,一個傳一個,把故事都說變了味.

第一次發知乎居然就是這種如此冷門的話題...我就是個註定孤獨的人啊啊啊啊啊啊啊......

轉載：

鵝媽媽童謠——從來沒有血腥或恐怖 (2010-01-04 15:06:19)

地址：鵝媽媽童謠—

作者：倬九勒

關於鵝媽媽童謠已經介紹很多了，雖然這些介紹都內容差不多，我不再添油加醋。

我看到很多人把一些邪惡小童謠說成是鵝媽媽的。這些小童謠非常冷靜地描寫了一些暴力事件，所以看著還是很驚悚的。比如MY MOTHER HAS KILLED ME, LIZZIE BORDEN, WHEN GOOD KING ARTHUR RULED THIS LAND, ETC.這些小童謠已得到到很多人的好評，沒聽說過但有興趣的可以自己搜索看一下。

我不敢說自己是這方面的專家，但是這些小童謠沒有出現在我見過的任何一本鵝媽媽的集子里。有人因為鵝媽媽如此讓他們激動，而到處找所謂的「未刪節本」或「全本全集」，這是很奇怪的。這些童謠本來就是各種人們搜集的，作為Nursery Rhymes出版，是無所謂刪節或全本的……我見過的THE COMPLETE MOTHER GOOSE(New York.Frederick A. Stokes Compacny),THE REAL MOTHER GOOSE(RAND MCNALLY CO.CHICAGO),DENSLOW"S MOTHER GOOSE, FAVORITE RHYMES OF MOTHER GOOSE以及THE ORIGINAL MOTHER GOOSE"S MELODY 等，往往內容選取上都不一樣……但即使最全面的集子也不會有前面提到的三個童謠

當然像Solomon Grundy和There Was A Crooked Man還是有的，大名鼎鼎的Who killed Cock Robin?也有（但是沒有一些人寫的最後那個Notice）；而被阿加莎克里斯蒂採用為標題的TEN NIGGERS（美國1940年版改為《無人生還》）《十個小黑人》原來是TEN LITTLE INDIANS，1868年一個叫Septimus Winner 的人創作的，一開始寫作10 Little Injuns，1869年被改編為（可能是被一個叫J. Green的人）Ten Litlle Niggers，在歐洲廣泛流傳；因此對於這童謠出自於鵝媽媽的說法我深表懷疑……至於Lizzie Borden took an axe這首（見附），是Lizzie Borden 案件發生後，流傳開來的一個jump-rope rhyme；不能說是鵝媽媽里的。

可見這些東西按在鵝媽媽頭上真是張冠李戴。那麼其他那些邪惡的小童謠來自哪裡呢？我看了一些人發童謠後寫明的出處，都是一些我從未見過的書，用Google百度下（或用百度Google下）以後我發現這其中大部分來自日本，或是漫畫或是小說。我突然想起來初中里就看到一則消息，日本人考證格林童話，說是「很黃很暴力」的書。德語文學教授楊武能已經駁斥了日本人的這種說法。這下很明白了，看來日本人又考證了鵝媽媽……

因此，不管是出於什麼心態要找鵝媽媽的故事「全」集，尤其想多讀點這類陰暗文字的，恐怕能找到的都在網上了（或者只能到日本去找了）

附：

Lizzie Borden took an axe

And gave her mother forty whacks.

When she saw what she had done

She gave her father forty-one.